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ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Making water
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This question will go out to all of those wonderful model builders on this site. How many different ways is there to make water for a diorama. My latest project will be in honor of Wallace McNesih and PT-374, and will be in 1/35 scale. Water color is important. I have seen products that need no mixing. Just open the can/bottle and pour. Just wondering how many of you guys have worked with making water, and would love to have some good tips...........

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Oct 20, 2009 - 4:14pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Hi Frank.

I don't want to sound like I'm nitpicking but it would be *VERY* helpful to know what kind of water you want to model. Is it flat, rough, boat at speed, shallow water, deep water and so on. I ask this because the type of water I am modelling dictates the materials and the technique(s) I use to get the effect I'm after.

Cheers from PeterTareBuilder

"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Oct 20, 2009 - 5:43pm
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm

Sorry about that. The boat will be docked in an inlet water way so the water would be still................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Oct 20, 2009 - 5:58pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Frank: FineScale Modeler has a wealth of how-to info available thru their website.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 9:27am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

FRANK;
I have used a few different mediums, but your two best would be liquid resin and fibreglass resin. Both will give "depth" to your water. Of course you must build a barrier around the base of upside down corner molding , line the pieces with aluminum foil, as you will remove them when the "water" Dries. Important: add your color to the resin went mixing.
I will send you something later, discribing this process.
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 11:40am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I'm currently building Italeri's boat in a dockside diorama tribute to all the boats & men of Ron 33. I'll probably tick off the purists, but instead of building a specific boat number as it appeared at a specific date in time. I'm building a specific boat number, but including subtle details found on other boats within the squadron.
Anyway, I talked with a guy who did a dockside diorama & from whom I got the inspiration to do mine. He used a 2 part resin furniture coating to simulate his water(I can't remember the brand off the top of my head). He cut his boat down to be a waterline kit, however I'm leaving mine full hulled, but still only pouring a .25 resin water depth(I can explain how if anyone's interested). Instead of coloring the resin, he painted the base under the resin in various greens & blacks. I'm going a step further & painting the shadows around the base of the pilings & under the dock & boat. As I said, he poured only about a .25 thickness of resin, but with the color under it, it appears to be scale feet thick. I was very impressed with the result! Nice thing is that if you watch the Sunday paper, or Hobby Lobby's web site you can get a 40% off any one item coupon which allows you to buy more than enough product for about $15. if I remember right.
Just another idea on modeling still water.
I'd really love to model the water as that beautiful aqua marine/turquoise color found in parts of the Pacific, but just can't find any photo reference that it ever existed around Philippine docks. Bummer, but I'll just have to live with murky greens!
Blake

Posted By: Blake | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 2:01pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Apr 18, 2008 - 2:44pm

Hello Guys

Thanks so far for the information on maiking water. I came across several sites that make the water as easy as pouting it from the jar. No mixing or anything. I am sure everyone has their own way of doing the water. Trying to simulate the wonderful colors of the Pacific water is very difficult, and for that reason, we may do the murky green color as well. I am sure Alex will be running several tests well before the boat ever hits the water. No room for error here. Would love to see some photos if anyone has any of their work or water descriptions...................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 4:52pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Hi Frank.

If you ever decide to use polyester resin (fiberglass resin) for anything plastic be aware, be *VERY* aware that it can get *EXTREMELY* hot if mixed in a small container. When setting it can generate enough heat to melt styrene. Many modellers coat their models with a thin layer of clear epoxy resin to protect it from the heat of setting polyester resin. It also helps to have several thin pours rather than one deep pour. I like the two part clear Envirotex epoxy resin. Pouring thin coats allows you to add things like fishes to the water too.

One other thing, epoxy resins are at least as carcinogenic as polyester resins but don't smell nearly as bad. Therefore many people do not use proper protection when working with epoxy resin. I recommend using a *GOOD* respirator when working with these quantities of resin.

Cheers from Peter

"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 6:18pm
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm

Pete

Thanks very much for the heads up. This is why I dont get involved with building these things. I leave that up to guys like you and all the other wonderful builders on this site. That is why my models for the Exhibit are nothing less then perfect.............

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 7:44pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Ahoy there Frank.

One method that some people like to use when making water is to use clear acrylic or Plexiglas sheets. They either cut the boat hull down or they cut out an area of the Plexiglas sheet for the hull to sit into. With an airbrush you can lightly fog the underside of the Plexiglas. Some modelers use more than one layer of Plexiglas to give a different effect. Low ripples can be added to the surface either with resin -- even five minute epoxy is good - or some clear silicone sealant.

BTW, most epoxy resins cure very slowly so modelers prefer polyester resin if they are making larger waves or whitecaps and spume.

I'd be interested in seeing links to sites where modeling water is as easy as pouring it out of a jar.

Cheers from Peter

"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Oct 22, 2009 - 8:20pm
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm

Peter;
Here you go:
http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/items.cfm/Water

Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 23, 2009 - 7:06am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Thanks Ted.

I'll have to see who in my area carries Woodland Scenics or who can order it in for me.

Cheers from Peter

"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Oct 23, 2009 - 3:46pm
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm

Hiya Frank A.

I have a tried and true method for making water, easy, fast and cheap! I have been using this method for almost 20 years and I can say here and now that my clients love it. I have been making and selling my finished models for over 30 years and this water method is drop dead beautiful!

I have been using Durhams water putty and Plaid brand high gloss decopauge.

First determine the size of your diorama say 24 x 36 "! Make sure that you DO NOT use any type of porious material like cardboard or fiberboard. The reason here is that the water putty will soak right through it and you'll have made a mess rather than water. Build a small dam around the outside lip of the diorama to hold the water putty in.

Next mix the water putty to the likeing of heavy cream. Now you have to work quiclky. Pour the water putty on the base and smooth it around the pier heads, docks and the PT. Try to get as much on the base as possible. If you need another batch make it up and start porung it on the other areas. Smooth out the water putty! It will set up quickly but you can retard the process with a few drop of vinegar.

Now comes the fun part! Find a bunch of spoons! Plastic, metal it doesn't matter! Press the spoon into the water putty and lift up wards. If you want waves keep on working the spoon in the putty to simulate the waves. Work the putty around the fixtures. For smooth water or placid watter, I use a 1 inch scholastic art brush. Using a stippling effect gently work the bristles of the brush into the putty to replicate the ripples. Keep the brush wet with clean water as you proceed and don't let either the spoon or the brush get hard with water putty. When you are satisfied -LEAVE IT!!

When the water putty is dry it is light creamy yellow color almost white! Let it completely dry over night!

As an artist I have been trained in the mid '60's that oils are the only way to go. For my base color I use Windsor and Newton Artist oils ONLY!! I do not use acrylics EVER!!!! For a deep ocean I use French uUltra Marine Blue. This color is absolutely remarkable and can bre thinned down with thinners. A little and I do mean a little Sap Green is good as well.

For brackash water I use sap green and burnt umber.

Here one tip that I'd like to share with you guys! Remember cloud coverage when you are modeling. Any body of water is NEVER one solid color! Clouds play an important part in light to dark contrast! Trees will cast shadows as well!

OK, you've got the base coat down! For you guys that absolutely have to use acrylics, go ahead ! You won't hurt my feelings! I'm just an old school purist is all and I love my oils!

Let the base coat dry! AS IN DRY!! Oils take longer to dry than acrylics! Now comes the magic white! Like I said I only use olis! Using a fan brush, dry brush the white over the top of the ripples and waves. If it's moving add your bow wake trailing off as well as your stern wake. If it's really moving add more stern and bow wakes. Let the white dry over night AGAIN.

With me so far! OK, take that 1 inch artist brush and start with a heavy coiat of MOD- POUGE decopauge. MAKE SURE YOU USE THE HIGH GLOSS AND NOT THE MAT FINISH!!

The MOD-POUGE with dry crystal clear and give a high gloss finish over the entire piece! Yeah, yeah yeah, I know the MOD-Podge is acrylic polymer! The neat thing about this stuff is that it will skin over and lock in the color! The results are- well you just to try it to believe it!

Resin is way too expensive and it STINKS!!! The MOD-PODGE is about $7.00 a bottle and the Durhams is about the same for a big can of the stuff!

Bottom line here! Be patient!! Good modeling is never rushed! Have fun with this and let me know how you like my technique!

Frank Ryczek, Jr.
Maritime Artworks Limited
Jacksonville Florida
Modeler/ Friend RON-10 PT-169 " ZEBRA SNAFU "

HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!

YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!

Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Oct 23, 2009 - 4:36pm
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm

Hello again guys-

I just got a flash when I read Pete's thread. Yes plexiglass is another way to go!

BUT!!!! How about going one futher guys! By using the plexiglass and leaving the hull intact and cutting a hole the size of the hull at the waterline, you can model the ship or PT ABOVE AND BELOW THE WATERLINE!!!!

I have done this with a model of the old Revell Titanic for a client so many moons ago that I had forgot about it until Pete tripped my brain trigger's!

It is an incredible look for any model! Hey Frank A., are you getting my drift on this idea for the Green Island diorama. Dang it, I wish I lived closer to you Frank A.!!!!

Frank you told me that you are going to have a crew in a dingy hauling up a damaged prop. Picture that Frank, you can actually see the prop IN THE WATER being hauled up! How cool would that be!!!

OK that's it Frank! Put me up for a few days 'cause I'm packing my bags!

Frank Ryczek, Jr.
Modeler/Friend RON-10 PT-169 " ZEBRA SNAFU "

HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!

YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!

Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Oct 23, 2009 - 4:56pm
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm

Frank:

Awesome description on making water. You do have my E-Mail address, so please send me some pictures of your water. I bet Alex will be thrilled when he sees your post. Your right Frank, I wish we did live closer. Problem is you would probably be over everyday and we would talk PT BOATS for hours. Wait a minue, WHAS WRONG WITH THAT!!!. Thanks again Frank, your really helping me out here.............

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Oct 23, 2009 - 5:13pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Frank,
Can you post some of your pictures here as well? I'd like to see the results. Sounds like a great idea!
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Oct 23, 2009 - 9:00pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Hey guys and Frank A.-

Now that I have everyone "biting at the bit" with my "how to make water" technique, I'll pull out some of my old photographs and send them to ol' Frank so that he can post them for you guys! OK Frank! I don't have a scanner! I'll get them out to you Frank ASAP!!

PS for Frank- The figures and palm trees for the diorama are coming along nicely!

Thanks guys for your interest!

Frank Ryczek, Jr.
Modeler/Friend RON-10 PT-169 " ZEBRA SNAFU "

HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!

YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!

Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Oct 24, 2009 - 6:30am
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm

Avast there Mateys.

I meant to mention that I use mostly acrylics when I am painting figures and static display models. That is because I have severe breathing problems if I'm exposed to strong solvents. When using an extender/retarder acrylics can take a very long time to dry to and thus can be blended into each other very much like oils can. Another *BIG* attraction acrylics have for me is their cost. Many times they are available at dollar stores or craft stores for $1.00 Canadian per 2 ounces bottle. That is for a quality acrylic paint such as Folk Art, Delta Creme Coat, etcetera. With such a low cost they can even be used to tint your ground cover if you are using a plaster or plaster -like material. I just thought I'd pass that along since we are talking about painting water. BTW, Folk Art pigments are fine enough to get good detail on even 25mm figure's faces.

Cheers from Peter

"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Oct 24, 2009 - 7:32am
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm

As soon as I get te pictures from you Frank, I will have some of them posted here for the guys to. I hope some of you that are writing in about the water will post your water diorama's so we can all see them. I think its great that some of you are writing in on this post. I know it will be a tremendous help to Alex.........

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Oct 24, 2009 - 11:39am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

I have ben told about this site which has the most incredible Diorama parts ever to be found. I only had a chance to go through the site briefly, but I must say WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! The things they are doing these days with Diorama parts and supplies boggles the mind. I spoke to the owner, and plead my case about doing 1/35 figures for PT BOATS. Not the crap that is out there with Helmets and Life Jackets on, but our guys in shorts, combat boots, no shirts, and caps. He liked the idea very much and told us to contact a site called FIGARTI.COM. He said these folks really take into consideration what modelers really want. Sooooo, if we all jump on the band wagon and send this guy an E-Mail or Letter, or phone call. We might just be able to outfit our ITALERI BOATS or DIORAMAS with some good figures...............

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Oct 30, 2009 - 1:51am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am