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ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Quad 50 cal machine guns
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=1415

Where quad 50 cal machine guns ever fitted onto a PT boat? And if they were, what type of quad, the one with the gunner between the guns or what?

Posted By: AlmKord | Posted on: Jun 27, 2009 - 8:31am
Total Posts: 46 | Joined: Jun 24, 2009 - 8:29am

Yes - they were ... I know of one photo of PT-195 with a quad 50 mount on her foredeck -

They were the same type of mount you'd see on a US Army half-track ...

Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Jun 27, 2009 - 9:51am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Garth

If you have this photo would you please post it to the site. I think I would like to see that as well...........

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 27, 2009 - 1:16pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH ................. OK, you WOULD ask that ...........

OK ........ Gimmee a few days to do that Frank, I'm doing some personal business stuff that is mooie importante ...................

Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Jun 27, 2009 - 2:28pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Not to be a pain, but does anyone know where I can find one for sale? I missed a big chance to get a 40mm a couple of months ago and i'm stilll kicking myself. My main objective is to replace the 50 cals on the 728 and add a .30 cal on the splash shield near the cockpit and get some assorted small arms. Oh and to restore the turret mounts. However it never hurts to get these guns while you can since they're being bought up quickly. If Fleet Obsolete ever gets around to restoring 615 or 48 or 4??, well the guns would be put to use on them.

Posted By: AlmKord | Posted on: Jun 27, 2009 - 8:23pm
Total Posts: 46 | Joined: Jun 24, 2009 - 8:29am

Look for surplus M-16 half track parts, as the quad .50 cal mount on PT 195's port side foredeck was a quad .50 cal Maxon mount. these were most commonly fitted to half tracks. However, Ray Turnbull's PT 195 is the only boat that this was ever fitted to, as I know. Since this was also Russ Pulano's boat, he should also be able to verify this. Yes I do have photos if you need them.
Hope this helps,
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 27, 2009 - 8:43pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Ted,

I don't know how reliable my memory is, but someone once told me that another boat had a quad 50 on the stern. I can't remember if it was Alex Johnson or Wayne Traxel.

All I can remember is seeing that in an email a few years back.

Garth

Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Jun 28, 2009 - 5:53am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

PT 156 carried one on the stern for a few months. I learned this from several former crewmen but do not have any photographs of the mount. Wayne Traxel may have images of the gun on PT 195 which was carried on the bow.

ALEX

Posted By: Alex Johnson | Posted on: Jun 28, 2009 - 6:18am
Total Posts: 70 | Joined: Mar 2, 2007 - 12:07pm

If it's not too much trouble, pictures would be great. Thanks.

Posted By: AlmKord | Posted on: Jun 28, 2009 - 6:53am
Total Posts: 46 | Joined: Jun 24, 2009 - 8:29am

Well my first searched turned up nothing, however there is a place in IL that sells rusted half track chassies. I searched the web for 20 minutes, so if anyone knows of any wbsites let me know.

Posted By: AlmKord | Posted on: Jun 28, 2009 - 7:04am
Total Posts: 46 | Joined: Jun 24, 2009 - 8:29am

See Ted, ...

I KNEW someone told me that ........

I'm not as crazy as everyone tells me I am .... but why is that guy in the white jacket looking at me?

Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Jun 28, 2009 - 8:43am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I have personal confirmation of this PT boat mount from my father-in-law, Lt. Col James Grant Burgess, Ret (deceased). Before he passed on, I made him a model of a WW II era half track with a quad .50 caliber mount. He had commanded a unit of these machines on New Guinea. He then told me an interesting story of how he was approached by a Navy PT boat officer who requested a spare quad mount to replace his stern 20 mm mount. My father-in-law was instrumental in making this happen and in training navy personnel in the operation, and maintenance of the mount. With the help of Garth at PT Consulting, we have identified this boat as PT156.

SteveS156

Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: Jun 30, 2009 - 7:03am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

SteveS156 wrote:
I have personal confirmation of this PT boat mount from my father-in-law, Lt. Col James Grant Burgess, Ret (deceased). Before he passed on, I made him a model of a WW II era half track with a quad .50 caliber mount. He had commanded a unit of these machines on New Guinea. He then told me an interesting story of how he was approached by a Navy PT boat officer who requested a spare quad mount to replace his stern 20 mm mount. My father-in-law was instrumental in making this happen and in training navy personnel in the operation, and maintenance of the mount. With the help of Garth at PT Consulting, we have identified this boat as PT156.
SteveS156
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi there.

Dragon Models makes a 1/35 scale model of the quad fifty used in the half tracks. This quad mount is just the mount and guns and does not include the halftrack. It's called Quad Gun Trailer M55. Here is a link to an image and a build review of the kit:

or if you prefer Tiny URL:

http://tiny.cc/Yyilp

Cheers from PeterTareBuilder

"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Jun 30, 2009 - 8:13am
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm

Hey Ted! In your post you said "Yes I do have photos if you need them" Could you do us all a favor and post them to this message board? I think everyone would be thrilled to see how these quad mounts looked on a PT Boat. Thanks Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 30, 2009 - 9:15am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

I agree, I would love to see a PT boat with a quad mounted on the fore deck.

Posted By: AlmKord | Posted on: Jun 30, 2009 - 2:23pm
Total Posts: 46 | Joined: Jun 24, 2009 - 8:29am

fore deck??/????? did I spell that wrong??

Posted By: AlmKord | Posted on: Jun 30, 2009 - 2:40pm
Total Posts: 46 | Joined: Jun 24, 2009 - 8:29am

Foredeck, one word ..........

If you'd email me at PTConsultingNHR@aol.com, I'd send you one.

Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Jun 30, 2009 - 2:59pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Just emailed you

Posted By: AlmKord | Posted on: Jun 30, 2009 - 5:10pm
Total Posts: 46 | Joined: Jun 24, 2009 - 8:29am

Hi Jerry;
Here are two pictures of Ray Turnbull's 195 RON 12 circa 1944-1945. The boat was first nicknamed "BLACK AGNES" then later "TOOTLES". This was the boat I was suggesting, Jim Melanson rebuild PT 761, as a recreation/tribute. This would have allowed him some leeway and a slightly broader funding situation. However, fate stepped in and took care of 761.
Well take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 30, 2009 - 8:34pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

TED . . .

I tried to do a Kodak moment on them - but it was all I could get out of them.

Dick . . .

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT-1951-01.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT-195-41-01.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jun 30, 2009 - 11:02pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Dick;
Thanks for the effort, The first is from some magazine article, however, I do have this same in photo, but it is developed in sepia, and it is a little darker.Wayne sent me the second one, and about three more, but they don't show the mount.
As for the Maxon Mount itself, there is a photo of a Japanese prisoner, sitting on a ready storage ammo locker on 195's foredeck, it was in the newspaper years ago. That photo peaked my interest in this mount, when I found out it was Alfred Vanderbilt's PT 195, I was even more interested, as his family had an estate close to my Uncle Joe's 7 acre estate and my Uncle George's 3 acre estate in Oyster Bay and Glen Head, Long Island. I have recently seen a photo of him and most of his crew, but they stand in front of the mount, covering it up. In the second photo, they have ready magazines for the mount stowed on the deck agains the port side of the forward cabin. Where is Russ? This was his boat also.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 1, 2009 - 10:08am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Hi Ted,
Maybe I am not looking in the right place on your photos, but I cant see a Quad Machine gun mount anywhere! Can you tell me where I need to look? Is it on the bow just aft of the 37mm cannon? Or is it on the stern just forward of the 40mm? Are the crewmen on the bow covering it up? Thanks Jerry

Here is a photo of one mounted on CV16 Lexington in 1945

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jul 1, 2009 - 10:58am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

OOPS!
Damn I must be getting OLD!! I made a mistake, PT 194 was skipped by Ens. Robert Hursh Jr., PT 195(boat with Maxon mount) was skippered by LT Ray Turnbull and was Russ Pullano's boat. PT 196 was skippered by LT Alfred Vanderbilt, so there I admit....I made a mistake.

Anyway, the first photo, is of a prisoner on deck of another boat, the 195 Maxon is in the backround.

PT 194 breaking away from Wachapreague after refueling. Enroute to Leyte Gulf 19-21 October 1944.

Third is Vanderbilts crew on PT 196.

O.K. I am done.
TAKE CARE,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 1, 2009 - 11:39am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Wow! Thanks Ted!
Those photos are awesome! Thanks for posting them to the message board. I can see where it is now. Pretty cool. It seems like they removed the twin 50's from the turrets and put 20mm in their place on the Mark 19 mounts. This freed up deck space to put the quad 50 where the forward 20mm would normally be mounted on the Port Bow. More firepower so it makes a lot of sense. That sure looks like one mean PT Boat! Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jul 1, 2009 - 2:35pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

From the photo, it looks like the 195's 37mm gunner would have been in a little bit of a hairy position in combat, out in front of that quad .50...

Maybe they had some kind of "interrupter" on the quad mount -- like an aircraft's, to keep it's nose guns from shooting up the propeller -- to prevent it from firing through the 37mm position?

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jul 1, 2009 - 3:25pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

I agree with Jerry.

Posted By: AlmKord | Posted on: Jul 1, 2009 - 6:03pm
Total Posts: 46 | Joined: Jun 24, 2009 - 8:29am

Jerry;
RON 9 and RON 12 both carried what was know as the MK 12 scarff ring mount into the combat zone. However, Al also knows of some RON 10(which also tested the first models) and RON 11 boats.
It must be remembered that armament packages for the most part did not remain constant, especially in the earlier squadrons, in the combat zone. For example in a blown up photo of the first group of RON 9 boats shipped on the White Plains, Micheal Pessalano's PT 155 appears to have two covered 20mm MK 12 mounts, as does Herb Knight's PT 152 and PT 153. Most boats fitted with it carried it in the forward turret,such as Ham Smith's PT 154 and Bud Liebenow's PT 157, but some boats did carry it in the aft turret in the Solomons and beyond, such as PT 155.
But Rex Anderson's PT 156 in RON 9 and Ray Turnbull's PT 195 carried them in both turrets. (However, according to Russ' photos, when he was on the 195 boat, at least for the period when the photos were taken, the MK 12 's were temporarily replaced with a MK 17 mounts and twin .50's. The common practice was to remove turret depression rails were removed, at least on RON 12 boats with the MK 12, and in Russ' photo, the rear turret has no depression rail. As we know there must be an exception to the rule, and that appears to be Ed Pope's PT 134, then in RON 25, which has the removed depression rail on the aft turret, but in the photo I have, she sports twin .50's. If she ever carried a MK 12, I don't know but she might have). I am not sure, but I believe and correct me if I am wrong, boats fitted with this mount carried two as their combat load out, at least from the states, and was changed later on in the Solomons and New Guinea.
Take care all,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 1, 2009 - 8:57pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I have been chomping at the bit to download and view these. No joy! I there a PhotoBucket site where I can view these?

SteveS156

Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: Jul 2, 2009 - 7:19am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Steve;
just go to the instructions at the top of the page.

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 2, 2009 - 9:30am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Damn internet connection is too slow to download. Can you e-mail them to me?

Stehlingsg@broadstar.net

Thanks!

Steve

SteveS156

Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: Jul 3, 2009 - 7:42am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

The late Lt. William Diver was skipper of PT-195 nicknamed Tootles when the M45 Quad 50 mount and Mk-12 20mm turret mounts were fitted.

Lt Diver poses in quad 50 mount for this crew photo, spare M 45 ammo chests are on the port side of chartreuse

The M45 Multiple Cal. .50 was mounted on Half Tracks, two types of trailers(that I know of), the USS Lexington CV-16, PT- 195 and 156 in WW-2. and would not be surprised if other PT's also had them. This Mount was also used in Korea. In Vietnam the M45 was mounted on small trailers, flat bed trucks and on the stern of a Swift Boat, PCF- 4. The Swift Boat crew acquired theirs from an engine-less truck.

The M-12 20mm mount was developed in the New York Navy Yard and first fitted to the forward Turrets of all Ron 9 boats upon arrival in New Caledonia on their way to the Solomons. Ron 12 also tested these mounts before leaving the States. PT-191 had them in both turrets for awhile but reverted back to the twin 50's by the time Ron 12 left the States. Teds statement about a couple of Ron 9 PT's having this mount in two turrets is news to me but no suprise. By wars end the Mk-12 mount began appearing numerous other PT's. PT- 115's forward turret and the late Mike Sharkeys PT-168 "Raidin Maiden" in the aft turret. I'm sure as time goes on more photographs of the Mk-12 mount and other un known mounts will surface.

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Jul 5, 2009 - 7:19am
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am

Pretty cool.

Posted By: AlmKord | Posted on: Jul 7, 2009 - 1:38pm
Total Posts: 46 | Joined: Jun 24, 2009 - 8:29am

I know it may be after the war and all, but in 1946 PT-620 was fitted with two B-29 (yes, the airplane) quad 50 gun turrets, one on the foredeck in the middle and the other in the port side gun tub on the day room. In addition, the 40mm cannon was replaced with an unmanned unit and the aft starboard torpedo rack was replaced with the brains for this weapons system. The controller was mounted in the forward starboard side gun tub. The conversion was done at the Brooklyn Navy Yard and tested in the live fire exercise areas off of Patuxent Naval Air Station in the Chesapeake Bay.

The deck logs on the 620 indicate that on one of the missions, they fired 7000 rounds of 50 caliber and 300 rounds of 40mm. The purpose was testing various weapons systems for the new aluminum PT boats then being designed. One of the early concept drawings for PT-809 shows four of these quad 50 turrets in a rectangular layout, not in echelon as the 80 foot Elco 50s were placed.

The system remained on the 620 into the late 1940s and was removed before the boat was transferred to the ROK Navy. Reference (no, this is not BS): pictures at PT Boats, Inc. show the modifications to the 620; the deck logs at the National Archives II facility in College Park, Maryland indicate when the modifications were made, when and where the testing was done, and how many rounds were expended on each mission.

Chip Marshall
Silver Spring, Maryland USA

Posted By: Chip Marshall | Posted on: Jul 7, 2009 - 7:15pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Hi Chip,
You mentioned pictures from PT Boats, Inc. showing the modications to
the PT 620 with B 29 quad 50 gun turrets. Is it possible to post them
on message board for us to enjoy? Thanks so much.
Victor

Victor K Chun

Posted By: victorkchun | Posted on: Jul 11, 2009 - 8:39am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Good day,
I wanna build the model PT195. I saw photos in this theme, but unfortunatelly now they are deleted. So can you send this phtos on my email: treskov76@gmail.com
Roman

Posted By: starom | Posted on: Sep 3, 2017 - 10:28am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I reposted most images on this post that were lost to Photobucket - see each page again to view the photos.

Dick . . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Sep 3, 2017 - 1:21pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/120519502.jpg

Posted By: nahma | Posted on: Sep 4, 2017 - 11:43pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Thanks for your efforts once again Dick, where would we be without you? [:-cheers-:]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Sep 6, 2017 - 6:10am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am