The PT Boat Forum
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi
» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?cid=101&fct=showf
» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?fct=gotoforum&cid=101&fid=102
» Topic:
PT and Alamo scouts
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=1338
Hi Guys
I’m thinking about a diorama with PT and Alamo Scouts.
I can’t pictures of Alamo scouts climbing from the PT to the raft , I suposed they used this to go to the coast for clandestine operations , and they used a net , but I didn’t find any pic about this.
Could somebody help me ?
Thanks !
Posted By: Gustavo Martinez | Posted on: May 12, 2009 - 2:32am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Sorry I realised , If this operations were clandestine at night , there are no picture.
Have anyone pics about people climbing from the PT by net cargo ?
Thanks and apologies !
Posted By: Gustavo Martinez | Posted on: May 12, 2009 - 2:55am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
gustavo -
On our occasions of making contact with the alamo scouts,
nets were not utilized. Our decks were only a few feet above the
water surface.
At a pickup rendezvous, the scouts were brought from the shore
by filipino guerillas in an outrigger. They just climbed aboard the boat.
this occurred late at night.
gus
pt 497
Posted By: area51 | Posted on: May 12, 2009 - 8:42am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Hi Gustavo,
Most of the drop offs from PT's were during the cover of dark. On some occasions they were picked up during the day time. On board the PT's there were always an Alamo Scout contact team that stayed on the PT boat. They would help the operational team on and off the boat and be there for a backup and radio communications. As far as cargo nets being used, good question! I don't think they were used but we are having our reunion this week so I can ask a few of the Scouts and get back to you next week.
During operations in the Philippines the teams still used PT's but I remember my father telling me that his last few missions they used C-47's in Luzon.
I spent a week at the National Archives in College Park, MD and found no photos of Scout teams going on and off PT's. I think a flash bulb going off at the drop off point would be a dead give away... ;-)
Last year I was given a bunch of photos by one the son of team leader, John McGowen. In the group of photos are many photos of the team onboard PT boats. They were shot during the day probably going to or coming back from a mission. Hard to tell. The photos are in not-so good-of-shape but I will be posting them on the Alamo Scouts website in the near future.
Russ Blaise
Executive Director
Alamo Scouts Association
asa at alamoscouts dot org
Posted By: Russ Blaise | Posted on: May 12, 2009 - 9:20am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thank you very much
gus pt 497 and Russ !
Posted By: Gustavo Martinez | Posted on: May 12, 2009 - 3:10pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
russ
couple of questions
were the scouts also known as beach jumpers? is it possible the scouts used avr boats also?
thanks
Posted By: kstrehle | Posted on: May 15, 2009 - 6:07am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Morning;
Big difference between Alamo Scouts and Beach Jumpers.
Alamo Scouts were Army, their training schools were in theatre. They exclusively worked in New Guinea and Philippines. Alamo Scouts were a special forces unit that specialized in Special Reconnaissance, direct action missions(DA), Foreign Internal Defense(FID) and Unconventional Warefare(UW). 138 team members conducted 108 successful "known" missions behind enemy lines with a loss of a single man.
Beach Jumpers were Navy, there training was at Camp Bradford, Virginia Beach, Virginia(which today is part of NAB Little Creek) mainly worked in Mediterranean and had their largest success in this theatre. They specialized in deception, diversions, and psychological warfare. They used 63' ASR boats as their primary insertion/deception craft. Two Beach Jumper units were sent to the Pacific, to operate in the Philippines. They shipped out on Orestes, they lost some officers when the Kamakaze hit, and they lost some 16 more guys when Mangarin Bay PT base was bombed on New Years Day 1945. When they finally did get to operate, they were successful, but they were limited to a handful of actions.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: May 19, 2009 - 7:04am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Great explanation, Ted on the differences between the Alamo Scouts and Beach Jumpers... Thanks.
I don't believe the Scouts used AVR Boats for transportation to and from a mission... at least I'm not aware of it or heard any of the Scouts mention AVR Boats.
At the Alamo Scouts reunion I asked the Scouts about the use of cargo nets. They said no to that. The PT's were low enough to get on and off the rubber boats. PT-379 crewman, Ralph Kleeberger was at our reunion and said no to cargo nets also. Ralph was part of a rescue mission that the Dove Team carried out on Fuga Island... It was nice to see Ralph and his lovely wife, Lee Ann at our reunion. We had a great time.
Russ Blaise
Executive Director
Alamo Scouts Association
asa at alamoscouts dot org
Posted By: Russ Blaise | Posted on: May 19, 2009 - 8:41am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Russ;
I would have to say you are correct, I know you ahve done far more research than I have on Alamo Scouts, but as far as I can determine, If waterborne insertion was required, PT Boats were always used. From a NavSpecWar point of view, I can see three main reasons for this: #1 Rapid and well armed insertion platform. #2 numerous assets, when the scouts started using PT's there were quite a few out there already. #3 Common to area, the Japanese were already used to hearing PT off the coast at night, so it was not unsual, the boats would drop off the team and then go flying up the coast to their designated patrol areas. I am sure the sound of Hall-Scott engines(which were in AVR/ASR boats) was very different than the Packards, this different sound could tip off the enemy, that somebody was just dropped off in the backyard and might come to dinner.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: May 20, 2009 - 5:26am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Hi Guys,
Does anyone know if the OSS operated in the South pacific, like they did in the
Med ?
Steve
Steve Nugent
Posted By: Nuge210 | Posted on: May 21, 2009 - 1:19pm
Total Posts: 323 | Joined: Jun 4, 2008 - 7:50am
To make a long story short. The OSS did operate in the pacific very early in the war. Due to some trust issues, General MacArthur would not permit the OSS to work in any area commanded by him during the war. The OSS did how ever worked in Burma.
[url]http://www.armchairgeneral.com/detachment-101-the-oss-in-burma.htm/2[/url]
So that is why the Alamo Scouts were formed. To replace the OSS.
I'll let you in on a story that I have not yet put out there to the public:
[url]http://www.alamoscouts.org/features/war_stories/astc/macarthur.htm[/url]
Russ Blaise
Executive Director
Alamo Scouts Association
asa at alamoscouts dot org
Posted By: Russ Blaise | Posted on: May 21, 2009 - 4:25pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
British Combined Operations veteran LCDR Wooley, of the Royal Navy, was placed in charge of the OSS Maritime Unit in June 1943.
Their training started in November 1943 at Camp Pendleton, moved to Catalina Island in January 1944, and finally moved to the warmer waters in the Bahamas in March 1944. Within the U.S. military, they pioneered flexible swim fins and facemasks, closed-circuit diving equipment, the use of swimmer submersibles, and combat swimming and limpet mine attacks.
In May 1944, GEN Donovan, the head of the OSS, divided the unit into groups. He loaned Group 1, under LT Choate, to ADM Nimitz, as a way to introduce the OSS into the Pacific Theater. They became part of UDT-10 in July 1944. Five OSS men participated in the very first UDT submarine operation with the USS BURRFISH in the Caroline Islands in August 1944.
UDT-10(OSS) and the USS Burfish SS-312 performed reconnaissance on the Islands of Peleliu and Yap in August of 1944. This was the first time Navy special forces deployed from a submarine. Indecision on the part of Navy high command created a need for more information on the two islands in order to determine which of the two was more suitable for invasion. Peleliu was scouted successfully on August 9. On the 16th, Yap was scouted, also successfully. On the 18th Gagil Tomil was scouted and a barrier reef was immediately found. Leaving the boat and one member behind, four members swam ahead, although one later returned, unable to handle the strong currents sweepingg the reef. The three remaining members were never seen alive again, and intercepted communications later indicated they had been captured by the Japanese troops manning the island. No record of them was ever found and it is thought they were put on a boat back to Japan that was subsequently torpedoed by an unknowing American submarine. Due to the information this team gathered, the island of Yap was deemed too costly and was bypassed; without reinforcements the Japanese garrison on the island withered until the end of the war.
UDT 10 later participated in the invasion of the Philipines.
TAKE CARE,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: May 22, 2009 - 11:41am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Hi Guys
Trying to imagine how alamo scouts disembark directly from the PT (for a potential diorama) I tested this in 1/35 th scale using 90's uncompleted navy seals figures and the hull of my 596 Italeri PT Boat.
I think Alamo Scouts should make "a small jump" from the Pt
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/DSC00045.jpg[/image]
Bye
Posted By: Gustavo Martinez | Posted on: May 30, 2009 - 7:34am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Gus
I have a few photo's of the Ron 22 Higgins boats carrying Commando's to their destination point. As the raft's are on the stern, and this is the lowest point of the boat, I would guess they might jump off at this point of the boat. Essentially, they can jump from any point, but I doubt they would have from the extream bow. If they dropped them with rubber rafts, it would be done from the stern.................
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: May 30, 2009 - 7:39am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Thanks Frank !
Posted By: Gustavo Martinez | Posted on: May 30, 2009 - 7:42am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Ted,
I thought I had read somewhere that postwar Japanese records revealed that the three frogmen of UDT-10 who were captured at Yap had eventually been executed (beheaded)...(?)
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: May 30, 2009 - 7:47am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
I think Alamo Scouts should make a small jump from the Pt
Now I got another question to ask the Scouts... Thanks :-)
There were always two Alamo Scout teams aboard the PT. One (called the Contact Team) stayed behind on the PT while the other went on their mission. So it's a safe bet the Contact Team helped the Op Team on and off the PT... The PT crew manned their guns incase of any unexpected surprises. And there were a few of them.
Russ Blaise
Executive Director
Alamo Scouts Association
asa at alamoscouts dot org
Posted By: Russ Blaise | Posted on: May 31, 2009 - 7:12pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thanks Russ !
"... The PT crew manned their guns incase of any unexpected surprises..." is another issue for a diorama.
Considering this plus two teams it's a lot of people on the deck at the same time. I'll continue testing.
Bye
Posted By: Gustavo Martinez | Posted on: Jun 1, 2009 - 3:47am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Gustavo,
I should note that the "Contact Team" was not a full team of Scouts. A Lieutenant and two or three of his men. The Operational team was 6 of more men.
Russ Blaise
Executive Director
Alamo Scouts Association
asa at alamoscouts dot org
Posted By: Russ Blaise | Posted on: Jun 1, 2009 - 6:03am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Drew;
Yes I did read this also in a book, but as far as our side is concerned they were never seen again. Later after the war, it was discovered by translating captured Japanese documents they were taken prisoner under a gun emplacement at Tomil on Yap Island, and they were tortured.
QM 1/C Bob Black, Chief Gunners Mate Howard Roeder, and SP(A) 1/C John MacMahon had been captured by the Japanese. They provided false information under intense torture - per instructions - about UDT capabilities.
ANNANSAKI 22 August 1944
Special Report GOTTO Unit
Intelligence Office (JOKOSHITSU)
On September 2, Roeder, MacMahon, and Black were placed aboard a Japanese Special sub-chaser URUPPU MARU at Palau for transfer to Davao and Manila in the Philippines. Nothing more was ever heard of them. Whether the ship was sunk, or they were killed or died on board or in a prison camp, nobody knows. They were not among the liberated prisoners when the Philippines were freed. Nothing is known except that they gave their lives for their country. They were posthumously awarded the Silver Star. A declassified ULTRA also supports this. It states they were transferred along with some Army Air Force B-24 aircrew that was shot down over Yap onn 25 August 1944.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 1, 2009 - 8:05am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Drew;
UPDATE: at another website that lists Hell ship voyages:
http://www.west-point.org/family/japanese-pow/ShipsAlpha.htm
it states that Uruppu Maru left Palau on 9/5/44 and made Davao/Manilla on 9/8/44 with 5 POW's on board. So the fate of the 3 men from UDT 10 occurred sometime after this, either in Manilla or on another Hellship bound for Japan.
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 1, 2009 - 8:12am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Russ
I´m reading an Osprey Publishing's book : US Special Warfare Units in the Pacific Theater 1941-1945 , from page 43 up to 45 you can read about Alamo Scouts , in a diagram describe a "typical Alamo scouts team 1944" :
Team leader (lieutenant), Second in comand, Radio operator, Demolition man , and two Boat men/scouts.
Thanks again
Posted By: Gustavo Martinez | Posted on: Jun 1, 2009 - 10:07am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Ted,
Thanks for the additional info on the missing men of UDT-10 and their fate. I was always interested in the UDTs since I was a kid, but I also knew they (like another area of my childhood military interest, fighter pilots) were an area of the military I could never -- as someone who was very nearsighted and wore glasses, even though I could "swim like a fish" -- be a part of (Draper Kauffman's WWII service nonwithstanding!).
When my family moved to St. Thomas in the U.S. Virgin Islands in early 1965 (I was 11 & 1/2) , I did get to interact a little with some of the guys of UDT-21 there, who were the coolest, most easy-going and self-assured guys I'd ever seen. I still remember them giving me some "Freddie The Frog" stickers that I put on the covers of my school textbooks.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 1, 2009 - 4:02pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Drew;
That is a great story! You probably did not know it then, but I bet you met Master Chief Ev Barrett and Master Chief Tom Blais, also maybe a guy nicknamed Boom Boom or Tis? I have been a member of the Fraternal Order UDT/SEAL since 1991, However, I am a Boat Guy. Barrett and Blais are living legends in the teams, and ST. Thomas was where the East Coast BUD/S Dive phase was held. Most of the East Coast BUD/S instructors were from UDT 21 or UDT 22. can yu remember some nicknames?
take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 1, 2009 - 6:53pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Ted,
I don't remember anyone's names from that time -- I was just an awed 11 & 12-year-old who got to be around them a few times.
I have vague memories of my Dad, shortly after we moved to St. Thomas, taking me down to the old Sub Base (that general area on St. Thomas was simply called "Sub Base" when we lived there, and probably still is), where the UDT's quarters were, in the old WWII barracks at the base of a big hill, and watching the guys wash their orange-and-white-paneled main parachutes with fresh water and hang them up to dry. We also watched them fill their scuba tanks from a compressor. There was a long wooden pier at the Sub Base where submarines (I guess they were UDT-training subs -- late-war WWII or 1950's pre-nuclear boats) still docked -- we went on a few "open houses" through a couple of those subs in the early years on the island. You can see the Sub Base area in the movie "The Frogmen" -- it stands in for the Japanese base at the end of the film.
I also have a vague memory of encountering some of the guys on the waterfront near my Dad's boat business. I think this was when they gave me the "Freddie the Frog" stickers. I remember that they wore green USMC-type fatigues and caps, but had a round patch on one of their shirt pockets. They were like very, very cool older brothers to me.
Another memory of that time is that there was still talk of a large bar fight -- it had already become a local legend -- that had occurred recently (before we moved there? Just after we moved there? I don't know)between just a few of the UDT guys and a much larger number of Marines, in which the UDT guys totally wiped the floor with the Marines. Apparently, the UDT guys had girlfriends who were barmaids in the bar, and the Marines had gotten a little fresh with them. This was talked about by my Dad and other adults in awed and respectful tones, with much shaking of heads, and comments like "Those UDT guys, they're something else!"
The UDT guys would do exhibition jumps into the harbor during Carnival week, aiming to hit the centers of large, yellow-painted floating innertubes. They would occasionally zip around the harbor in a couple of landing crafts, and once in a while, when I'd walk down the waterfront after school towards my Dad's business, I'd see a column of white water rise from the rock shoals just outside the harbor mouth, and then, as the column started to fall, I'd hear the delayed "boooom!" -- the UDT was practicing blowing up the rocks again.
A good friend of my Dad's (and our family) was Joe Vogel, who ran a diving instruction/tour business on St. Thomas since the early 1960's. I think Joe was in UDT-21 during the '50's. Joe has a brick in the UDT/SEAL Museum walk, and I think he also has a paddle board hanging from the ceiling of the museum (it's labeled "Vogel," anyway).
Ahh, memories.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 3, 2009 - 2:19pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Drew,
Could you email me at slnuge@verizon.net
I have a couple questions.
Thanks, Steve
Steve Nugent
Posted By: Nuge210 | Posted on: Jun 9, 2009 - 3:46pm
Total Posts: 323 | Joined: Jun 4, 2008 - 7:50am
Hello guys,
Gus (Area51), please email me at Zee61@Aol.com. I need some info about you and your boat. Also, we need a photo of you (digital scan) for the oral history on the Alamo Scouts.
Going to Germantown, TN on Monday for a day of research. Will look for additional 497 info. Everyone have a great reunion!
Lance
Lance
Posted By: Alamo Scout | Posted on: Jun 17, 2009 - 3:53pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
LANCE;
JUST WATCHED "WARRIORS" ALAMO SCOUT EPISODE, IT WAS EXCELLENT. IT WAS ALSO GOOD TO SEE DALE DYE IN ACTION AGAIN.
TAKE CARE,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 18, 2009 - 12:50pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Ted,
Thanks. It was a lot of fun. Bill Littlefield is great--and Terry Schappert the host--he's very passionate about what he does. Take care.
Lance
Posted By: Alamo Scout | Posted on: Jun 22, 2009 - 2:28pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered