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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
Turret and Twin .50 Mount Colors
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=1147
I'm trying to finish modeling the turrets for an early 80' Elco but I'm stuck on the colors. I have several color photos of earlier boats that show the mount finish a light blue gray but photos of later boats appear darker. I'd like to know what the factory-fresh colors were as well as if they were later painted to match the color scheme of the boat. Any help with the colors of the following would be greatly appreciated:
ammo cans
depression rails
concentric ring parts/pedestal support tubes
overall mount color
upper ammo guide rollers, a similar mount on a Vietnam era PBR shows them as a reddish orange
were bolts and springs generally a parkerized finish?
Here's what I have so far, please feel free to point out any details I left out or screwed up no matter how small:
[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/temp/twin50mount.jpg[/image]
Note that the pedestal and pedestal support tube brace/lower ammo guide are early designs, and that the ammo box cover hooks are found on later boats. The turret lock also changed from one with a round knob on the handle end to what looks liked a looped handle. If you have any good closeups of the locks and/or ammo can holddowns I'd appreciate a copy since what I show now is mostly guesswork.
I did manage to make out the text on the upper ammo guide red tags:
BELT MUST BE FED INTO GUN
DOUBLE END OF LINK FIRST
Thanks in advance,
Jeff
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 2, 2009 - 11:47pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Loks like you are doing a superb job with the turrets. My memory of such
details you asked about is weak, but I offer some comments.
ammo cans : Ours were usually painted green. Sometimes we had the luxury of having base personnel build our 50cal belts. We painted our own cans to identify them as PT167. I think later cans were galvanized or Parkerized.
I don't remember details of:
depression rails
concentric ring parts/pedestal support tubes
overall mount color
upper ammo guide rollers, I'm pretty sure they were brass. We kept them well greased
were bolts and springs generally a parkerized finish? I think bolts were galvanized. Remember PTs were built by wood craftsmen because metal was scarce. I suspect there was no standard for such things as bolts and they used whatever was available. This likely doesn't help a bit, but it is interesting to try to remember such trival. Good Luck, Bob
Posted By: BobPic | Posted on: Jan 3, 2009 - 9:42am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Awesome work as usual. Those are great drawings!
The 103 class boats were initially painted Dark Gray (5-D) from the deck up. Later they were painted completely in 5-D upon deployment which was known as Measure 1. So if you want it as it came off the assembly line 5-D is your color.
The black and white photos I have don't yield much information except I would say the feeds look metalic and possibly unpainted. They look like weathered aluminum but who knows.
The following photos may yield a clue but I have no idea where these came from. I believe these were sold on ebay a while back. But they are clearly painted.
Good luck!
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/50CalBrowningAircraftMount1.jpg[/IMAGE]
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/50CalBrowningAircraftMount2.jpg[/IMAGE]
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/50CalBrowningAircraftMount3.jpg[/IMAGE]
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 3, 2009 - 10:09am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Dave, I wanted to get this straight as I am doing PT 103 project including the Crane from Elco. I have three paints for the boat, recommended by T. G. Connelly. The hull itself is painted No. #5 standard Navy Gray, and the deck and superstructures were 5-D Dark gray. Is this correct? I also have 65A Antifouling Red for the water line. I never used these paints before, but Tim recommended them (White Ensign Models), so if he said it, they must be very good. What color were the torpedo tubes done up in. Thanks for your help..........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 3, 2009 - 11:28am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Thanks guys, the darker shade and brass rollers sound good to me.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 3, 2009 - 11:56am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
By the way David, those were some of my favorite reference images for the mount. They really show the construction well.
One thing I think about when looking at turret images is that the gunners were so exposed, unprotected, and I imagine a prime target for enemy pilots? What was an enemy pilots plan of attack against a PT most likely to be?
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 3, 2009 - 12:23pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi Jeff, I have some experiences with Jap aircraft attacks. The 167 boat was torn up more than once. I'm sure you know there were no protected areas on a wooden PT boat, including the turrets. Several times we felt we were by-passed in action because we were a relatively small target. We also had significant firepower and must have diverted some pilots who didn't see the advantage of going after us. I really doubt that a pilot picked out a part of the boat as a target. Because of our maneuverablility, they had to be good to even hit us anyplace. Especially, in the Pacific, we operated only at night and were not visible until the last minute. As the helmsman under general quarters, I was taught to try to head directly at an approaching plane, especially if it was low flying, because a speeding plane couldn't depress their guns without crashing into the sea. I'm sure others have a different opinion, but I thought I'd put in my 2cents worth.
Posted By: BobPic | Posted on: Jan 3, 2009 - 1:54pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Our theory at night was to Zig-zag and go full throttle to the nearest rain cloud. You can't see a plane at night in the sky unless he is between you and the moon.
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Jan 3, 2009 - 2:57pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm
That's interesting, thanks Bob and C. J.. It helps dispel some of the Hollywood "choreographed gunfight at the OK corral" conditioning I have. I had thought the enemy pilots would have been able to pick out a specific target on the boat fairly easily but it doesn't sound that way.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 3, 2009 - 11:36pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
I like the changes, thanks once again guys. The darker color should show up details better, good call David.
[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/temp/twin50mount2.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 4, 2009 - 8:15am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Jeff could you contact me please mosquitofleet@comcast.net
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 4, 2009 - 10:34am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Jeff,
Purely from an observational perspective...the turret ring, gun mount and gun depression rails in the "flipped" (backwards) color photo of (what I think is) PT 107 on that U.S. Navy color photo site we were looking at some months ago show them to be the same color as the rest of the boat (Measure 5-D?).
This seems to be pretty consistent (the colors of the aforementioned items being the same as the rest of the boat) with all the color photos of PTs I've seen...
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 4, 2009 - 11:59am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Jeff
Before this post gets too old or further back in the listing, I want to make sure I compliment you on and outstanding model, the detail is exquisite. Many of the message boarders that aren’t draftsman, engineers or technical illustrators probably aren't aware of the countless hours this must have taken, specially since solid detail engineering does not exist anymore for the level of detail you included in the model.
To say the least, I'm a little, well, lets say very much envious of your CAD/Modeling skills. I only wish I had the time and money to learn this aspect of my career passing me buy – not to mention the battle of aging thrown into the mix. For now it’s the old parallel edge, triangles, pencil pointer and good old Scum-X. Along with Adobe Illustrator and PhotoShop for the final art.
Again, job excellently done, your model is mere beauty to these eyes.
Dick . . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 9, 2009 - 11:44pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Hey Jeff,
I went to look at the real 50 cal turret that we have on board PT658 and looked at those feed rollers (the lower ones) I always thought they were rusty steel, but I took a wire brush to them and guess what? They are made from some sort of "Bakelite" plastic material. They are definitely not brass or steel. By the way, I figured out how they work too. There is a square plate with a hinge pin on one end and then on the opposite end are the 2 rollers. When you want to load the ammo belt, you must squeeze those 2 pins together, which is against a spring loaded shaft for each roller. The movement of the shaft disengages them from sockets holding them and the rollers in place, so then you can swing the whole square plate up and reach down through the wider opening and feed the linked ammo belt through the hole, then you squeeze those two pins together and re-engage the roller axles into their sockets and the rollers stay in position. It is a lot simpler than it sounds. Just in case you care. By the way those rollers are a dark brown plastic looking material, and when I wire brushed it just got rougher but did not change color. OK so know you know! Jerry PT658 Portland Oregon
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 9, 2009 - 11:57pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Wow Dick, thank you very much. I haven't blushed in years...
Actually that's a lie. The last time I blushed was when I posted one of Gene's images I found on another site and didn't notice that A: it was one of Gene's I already had saved on my computer, and B: They were numbered incredibly wrong. My official excuse is that I did this after 14 hours of working on my PT project. But even that doesn't explain B. [:-stong-:]
I really appreciate your work too. Stick me in front of drafting tools and I'd be lucky to draw a stick man. The deck layouts you created are beautiful and a great resource for anyone with an interest in PT boats. Speaking of fine work, I look forward to your Higgins project updates.
You got it right about the time, as I'm sure you well know. Trying to nail down dimensions from perspective warped photos is an exercise in frustration. An e-mail buddy made me laugh when he called it "forensic CAD". I try to get within 1/100" but can only do that when I have "official" measurements which are scarce as hen's teeth. Lack of them turns 10 hours of accurate modeling into 100+ hours of guesswork. But it's worth it, I dislike modelers and do my best to get them to trust my drawings, then make their lives miserable by including more detail than they can possibly reproduce in something like a 1" long twin .50 mount. Just kidding.
Jerry, thank you very much for explaining that and for the material information. Although thanks to the images on your site I had some good references for modeling, I didn't really know how they worked. After a few minutes of head scratching, your explanation sunk in and now they make sense. Is that the springs between the rollers? In some of the images, the rear rollers look like cams that would lock the belt from falling our if rotated forward. Or or are they just rollers? Thanks in advance, and if you have any closeup images handy could you please send them to jeffd at pt103 dot com?
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 10, 2009 - 4:36am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi Jeff,
I will take some closeup pictures of the 50 cal turret with a ruler for scale of different parts of the entire thing. I am planning on going there this Thursday so I will email you photos probably next week. I will take pictures of both the roller assemblies and the rest of it just for your records. Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 11, 2009 - 9:59am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Thank you very much Jerry, that will be a great help. I'll hold off on posting a parts drawing so I can include your details of how the guides really work. I really appreciate you going out of your way like this and it will be interesting to see how far off on the dimensions I am.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 12, 2009 - 4:41am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi Jeff D,
The beautiful and detailed picture of the turret and twin .50 mount is out of this world. I really thought it was a real one. What scale is it? Are you
building a boat or just the turret? Which boat are you building? I welcome any information you can furnish me. It must be quite a project.
Victor
Victor K Chun
Posted By: victorkchun | Posted on: Jan 14, 2009 - 9:28pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thank you Victor, it is a CAD model and part of an ongoing project I'm working on at [url]http://www.pt103.com/[/url]. I plan on doing a complete 103 class boat and am trying to include factory changes up to PT 367. The finished boat will probably be a boat in the 109-138 range. I'm working at a 1:1 scale inside the program although that can be changed. As 3D printing technology advances, maybe one day I'll be able to print out parts in any scale desired.
I've really enjoyed your book Victor, it has been a great reference for me.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 15, 2009 - 1:15am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi Jeff,
Thank you for your reply to my question that I posted sometime ago. Since I was not familiar with how to use the message board, I didn't find your reply until last night.. I don't pretent to understand all that you said, still what you are doing is mind boggling. First of all, what is a CAD model?
When I was with Hughes Aircraft Co. as a plant engineer, I heard our draftsman mentioned CAD which I understood to mean using a computer system to do drafting. Am I right? If so I assumed you are working on a project that when finish, a person can build a real PT boat. In that case, all the drawings will surely benefit the modelers which is my main
concern. The isometric drawing of the machine gun turret is a modeler's
dream. What I am thinking is may be all wrong about the purpose of
your project. So please advise.
Victor
Victor K Chun
Posted By: victorkchun | Posted on: Feb 13, 2009 - 8:52pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
CAD stands for computer-aided design. The programs that are used create a virtual model in 3 dimensions that can be viewed from any angle. Uses of the 3D models include parts manufacturing and special effects in the entertainment industry. Models are defined by a mesh of points connected by lines. For example, a model of a faceted diamond would have a point at each facet corner with lines connecting them along the edges.
I started this project after coming across a 3D model of a PT boat. Closeup details were non-existent. After doing some research I decided to create my own to help in building a R/C model with scale accuracy being the key goal. The decision to share on a website was made after seeing how little information on fine details was available, and after seeing a commercial ready to run R/C boat that is quite frankly an abortion. It actually offended me.
Good thing I didn't know what I was getting in to at the time.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 15, 2009 - 2:14am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi Jeff,
After seeing your machine gun turret image and reading your explanation
of CAD, I am impressed with what the computer can do. Hoping to use
this technology to help PT boat modelers, I am thinking of adding several
pages to my book to acquaint the readers with this information, with
your permission of course. I seek your imput on this.
For faster communication my email is victorkchun@aol.com
Victor
Victor K Chun
Posted By: victorkchun | Posted on: Feb 15, 2009 - 5:43pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered