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Topic: PT 515 Cherbourg |
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TED WALTHER |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Feb 14, 2019 - 1:08pm
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Drew;
Oh come on, thats when you know your a real sailor when you can take that wind burning your face and rain hitting you in the face, that feels like 1000 needles hitting you
Back to the subject, as i said I am skeptical about the desired results matching up with the actual results. There must be a reason that in looking photos of RON 21 to RON 37(Pacific Boats) photos, all the boats have the mounting points for the air foil, but they are removed.
PT 379 RON 28 being repainted alongside tender. Notice the locking pin in the mounting hole. This is the way most boats are,after removing their air foil, with the locking pin in the hole.
By PT 565 RON 38 the air foil is gone, no mounting points.
Take care,
TED
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Jerry Gilmartin |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Feb 14, 2019 - 4:46pm
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I have been reading all this conjecture about the wind deflector and it reminded me of other examples of this air deflector scheme being used. Aboard the USS LCI713 landing craft on which I also volunteer, is a similar feature. On the open Conning Tower, where the OOD and Signalman are stationed, there is a metal shroud outside the upper edge of the Bridge. The upper bulwark of the Conn is beveled outwards to form a venturi shape between itself and the outer shroud. The result is an invisible air screen (like the one that blows at the entrance doors of Home Depot) which keeps the rain from hitting you in the face. This invisible air screen/rain deflector will work as long as the ship is moving forward at around 10 knots. Perhaps the PT Boat airfoil can be set up to create a similar air screen on a moving PT Boat? It would make sense as it cannot reflect any glare or other visual defects that detract from a plexiglass shield. As far as I know, this is a common method (the air screen) used on many vessel types of the period, and not just PT Boats. So it makes sense that the PT boats also had them.
Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR |
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Arjan Wiskerke
MASTER
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Posted on: Feb 15, 2019 - 2:11am
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Many thanks for your feedback gentlemen ! Vosper MTBs also had wind deflectors on the bridge (I hadn't thought of this before ....) :
No doubt the disadvantage of the system is indeed that a certain speed is required for optimal results.
Regards,
Arjan
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Drew Cook
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Feb 15, 2019 - 12:58pm
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Ted,
I definitely felt that wind and spray in the face when crewing (and helming) the (65 foot? Can't remember exactly) sloop "Odessa" from Santo Domingo to Puerto Rico across the Mona Passage many long years ago!
The Mona was pretty rough during that trip, both day and night.
Funny end of voyage -- We came into P.R. at dusk, all our electrics out, threading our way through the anchorage slowly, when some wise guy on the stern of one of the moored boats yelled "Hey! Where're your running lights!" My boss, who was at the helm at the moment, yelled back "We ain't got no f***in' running lights! We're f***in' spies!"
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TED WALTHER |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Feb 15, 2019 - 4:51pm
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Drew;
Ha Ha !! Ah yes I remember the Mona passage , we ran out 65' MK lll PB's from Puerto Plata through Mona past lsla Caja de Muertos to Roosevelt Roads.
Good times for sailors bad for the land lubbers!!
Take care,
TED
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Arjan Wiskerke
MASTER
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Posted on: Feb 18, 2019 - 8:15am
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In a file I received from Ted I found an action report that caught my attention. It concerns PT 518, PT 513 and PT 515.
"Combat off Le Havre
On the night of August 10/11, 1944, PT518 along with PT513 and PT515' was working in conjunction with the British frigate HMS THORNBOROUGH and patrolling off Le Havre, France.
The THORNBOROUGH vectored the PTs toward the land just north of Cape D'Antifer to investigate a 6-pip radar contact believed to be German E-Boats, R-Boats or trawlers. There was a heavy fog in the area so the PTs approached without German response until they were about 400 yards from the targets. The order was given to fire torpedoes and circle back to commence a gun attack.
While no torpedo hits could be confirmed, the Germans did open up their deck guns and a fire fight ensued. A number of hits were made by the PTs on the German vessels. PT513 took a hit on its 40mm gun mount. Two of her crew were seriously wounded and one man slightly wounded. PT515 and PT518 suffered no damage. The enemy was seen, by radar, to turn and enter the port of La Harve. The THORNBOROUGH directed the PTs to return to the patrol area. "
I was interested to learn what the damage was the PT boats had inflicted on the German ships so I turned to my German internet friends for some answers.
A German war diary mentions the engagement :
The German ships had set out to rescue a downed Luftwaffe air crew when they were attacked by 3 enemy "Gunboats". The Germans observed hits on the enemy boats after which these boats (the PT boats) retreated while using their smoke generators.. Apparently a German Subchaser (UJäger 1430) had received two hits on the superstructure from the guns of the PT boats. No mention of any casualties.
Arjan
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Arjan Wiskerke
MASTER
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Posted on: Feb 20, 2019 - 11:33pm
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As far as I know the only successful torpedo attack made by Channel PT boats was this one (from "At Close Quarters") :
This is what German sources mention about this attack :
- 26./27.08.1944 1. und 2. Gruppe unter Führung des FloChefs laufen zur Räumung von Fécamp nach dort zurück. Bei Angriffen brit. Schnellboote gehen AF 98 und AF 108 durch Torpedotreffer verloren. 9 Mann gefallen [4]
- 26./27.08.1944 In der Nacht greifen alliierte Seestreitkräfte Boote der 8. Artillerieträger-Flottille und der 14. R-Flottille an. AF 13, AF 98 und AF 108 werden versenkt. [2]
- 27.08.1944 02.50 Uhr S-Bootangriff von Steuerbord achteraus, Oberflächenläufer trifft Führerboot AF 98 Steuerbord vorn, Ruder klemmt, mit Schlepper Nungesser Schleppverbindung hergestellt, Besatzung geht auf R 226. 04.30 Uhr 4 sm östlich Fecamp sinkt AF 98, 1 Vermißter [3]
- 29./30.08.1944 Die Restbesatzungen von AF 97, AF 110 und AF 111 gehen über Land nach Le Havre, die von AF 98, AF 105, AF 108 nach Boulogne zurück, wo die Überlebenden nach Teilnahme am Landkampf später in Gefangenschaft geraten
- 27.08.1944 02.04 Uhr Feind-S-Bootgruppe mit 4 Booten läuft Steuerbord querab an, AF 108 Torpedotreffer unter Heck, wird bis zum Maschinenschott abgerissen, Boot schwimmt weiter. Ab 02.11 Uhr auch Zerstörerbeschuß, AF 108 wird daraufhin mit Hilfe eigener R-Boote gesprengt. 8 Vermißte, 13 Verwundete [3]
- 26./27.08.1944 In der Nacht greifen alliierte Seestreitkräfte Boote der 8. Artillerieträger-Flottille und der 14. R-Flottille an. AF 13, AF 98 und AF 108 werden versenkt. [2]
Two illustrations of the Artillerieträger (artillery lighters) in question :
Arjan
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Jeff D
Moderator
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Posted on: Feb 21, 2019 - 6:00am
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Interesting, thanks Arjan. Always good hearing both sides of an engagement. I remember seeing the Amagiri's report and how they saw the 109 and veered into it. Before that I was under the impression that the collision was sheer chance.
Accurate gun fire until almost 4 miles away... wow.
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Arjan Wiskerke
MASTER
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Posted on: Feb 21, 2019 - 6:58am
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Thanks Jeff . The fog of war and sometimes also real, literal fog often makes action reports slightly unreliable so it's always good to have accounts from both sides. By the way I'm surprised that the German Marine Fährprähme did not get the recognition they deserve. I mean everybody knows Germany's Schnellboote, U Boote and big battle ships but the workhorse of the Kriegsmarine , the MFP, is much less known to the general public. Nevertheless, I think these craft were of vital importance to Germany's war effort (on practically all fronts). They were used for supply , mine laying, escort duties etc. Many of these craft were built by small shipyards in Holland and Belgium and quite a number were transported over land to the Mediterranean (they had to travel over land because Gibraltar was controlled by the British). Some pics of a port in Normandy :
A small Dutch shipyard :
Over land transport :
Regards,
Arjan
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Jeff D
Moderator
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Posted on: Feb 21, 2019 - 9:49am
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Interesting, thanks Arjan. I could write what I know about the Kriegsmarine on the inside of a matchbook and have space left over.
The MFP sounds like the German equivalent to the Higgins LCVP. According to General Dwight D. Eisenhower, it was "the boat that won the war".
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