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Topic: Question regarding small arms aboard PTs |
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Frank J Andruss Sr
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 Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 3:36pm
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Peter Tare Builder,
Yes, the Rifles I have are the ones you described in your post. Not sure of the thought you have on using the rifles, but good luck. I spoke to Huck Wood tonight, XO, then Skipper on PT 124. He says that side arms were only handed out to the crew on few occassions, but were available for target practice ( on gooney birds ) or other targets. Huck says that the 124 had sevral Tommy Guns, .45 Pistols, M1- garands, and a few old .303 Springfield Rifles. They picked up a few cases of hand grenades, which on a few missions were used to blast a few fish to kingdom come. Some guys even had a contest on who could drop the most birds, using a rifle.
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EARL RICHMOND
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Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 4:18pm
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newsnerd99 i also wish i still had the MG.would be worth a lot more than 80.00 now.
hi CJ hope you are doing ok now.my best earl
earl richmond |
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QM
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Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 6:24pm
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| There seems to be many variations in the Colt 45's. We had enlisted men with permanent possession of a Colt 45. There were not enough for every man. Assignment of a gun was usually based on seniority on the boat. When a man left the boat his 45 was passed on to another crew member. We also had a Tommy gun, a 12 gage shotgun or two, and several bolt action 30 caliber rifles which were mounted in the charthouse. They were not locked. |
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fredtheobviouspseudonym
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Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 6:50pm
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Thanks to all -- informative.
Basically, it seems that there was no "standard" issue of small arms -- ship's arms locker was whatever the crew could scrounge, including on at least two occasions Japanese weapons.
Lots of .45s; most other weapons fast-firing and fairly handy (in both terms of being to-hand and being easy to maneuver on a bouncing, crowded PT.)
Not too many shore parties LOOKING for trouble (i.e., action vs. enemy troops) but lots armed in case of trouble.
Thanks again.
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Jerry Gilmartin |
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Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 9:48pm
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Hi Fred the obvious!
I saw this photo at the PT Boats Inc reunion in Spokane August 2006 and photgraphed it. I believe it is from a boat in RON30 in the English channel just before D-day. I believe this is the crew of PT461 a 78 foot Higgins boat, (just like the PT658) Higgins boats have a small arms rack just as you step through the watertight door connecting the Forward Crews Quarters to the Officers Quarters. The rack is mounted to the bulkhead of the ammo magazine. The ammunition for the small arms must have been kept in the ammunition magazine right beside it. As you can see, every man is armed. I count 2 Thompson SMG's 3 M1 Garands, 3 .45 auto pistols and 2 machetes! So I imagine most of the boats had at least these items. I have also heard that being the "scroungers" they were, several PT boaters were able to obtain a BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) If you look on the HNSA website http://www.hnsa.org/doc/pt/doctrine/index.htm and read the "Motor Torpedo Boats, Tactical Orders and Doctrine, July 1942" book posted there, I believe they spell out the normal complement of small arms provided on 80 foot Elco Boats. Here is what it says: (in Article 1107 on page 2)
MILITARY CHARACTERISTICS
1107 (1) PT 20 type-PTs 20-68 (Elco Boatworks). Length 77 feet; beam 20 feet; maximum draft 5 feet; displacement 95,000 pounds.
(a) GUNS:
Four .50-caliber air-cooled B. A. machine guns in two twin, hand-operated scarf ring mounts.
One 20-mm. Oerlikon mount. (Not carried by all squadrons.)
One .45-caliber Thompson submachine gun.
One or two Lewis machine guns mounted forward. (Not carried by squadrons having Thompson gun.)
Two .30-caliber Springfield rifles.
Thirteen .45-caliber Colt pistols.
I hope this photo is helpful. Jerry (PT658 crew)
Jerry Gilmartin |
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Drew Cook
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Posted on: Sep 19, 2008 - 2:37am
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Jerry,
Interesting photo of the 461 crew, thanks for posting it.
I wonder what all the little dark spots are around each of the forward ports on the charthouse -- small fittings for canvas cover ties?
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PeterTareBuilder
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Posted on: Sep 19, 2008 - 4:10pm
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Hi Frank.
The idea I had for using the model Arisaka rifle on one of my PT boat models was to have some of the crew gathered around examining war booty on the way back to base or shortly after arrival back at base.
Cheers from PeterTareBuilder
"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!" |
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fredtheobviouspseudonym
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Posted on: Sep 19, 2008 - 7:20pm
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Thanks, Mr. Gilmartin.
Outstanding photo -- both for the details of the armament & boat and of the attitudes of the crew. My father would have smacked me silly if I had ever handled a firearm the way some of the crew did. Apparently, if I remember the PT familiarization pamphlet, there was some concern over "friendly fire" casualties due to carelessness in handling small arms aboard PT boats. This implies that sometimes these incidents happened.
One minor note -- the rifles are versions of the US Magazine Rifle Model of 1903 (the so-called "Springfield".) It makes sense -- these were usually issued to servicemen who needed to be armed but were less likely to engage the enemy than infantrymen, marines, combat engineers, etc. IIRC in Kirk Douglas' autobiography, "The Ragman's Son," there was a photograph of Mr. Douglas during his naval service on a minesweeper holding a 1903 Springfield.
Once more, thank you for your E-letter and letting me see that photo.
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Allan
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Posted on: Sep 19, 2008 - 9:45pm
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Frank:
What is the .30 stinger that you referred to in an earlier post on this subject? I am unfamiliar with this, unless it is sometimes called something else. Is it a tripod mounted air cooled machine gun?
For the board members:
My research into the Division 17 boats indicates that Colt .45 pistols were assigned to every man on the boat and they carried them most of the time in the dispersal areas and all of the time while on patrol. They were assigend to and each man was repsonsible for his own .45, all the time. I have first hand accounts of the men resorting directly to the .45's in combat situations but they weere also regarded as a survival tools if they needed to abandon the boat. Operating in enemy waters of New Guinea presented multiple opportunities to reef a boat- some say it was a nightly occurance. The guys carried pockets full of .45 ammo so as to be instantly ready to abandon the boat and then to survive until they could be recovered. The psitols were assigned by the CO's of each boat, usually upon leaving Cairns. The boys knew that they would soon be in for the fight of their lives and reports coming back of enemy atrocities only strengthened that thinking. Further, the natives were rumored to be canabals and none were to be trusted. Later, this thinking was revised, but only to a certain extent. So, it can be concluded that the .45's were sometimes used offensively at close quarters and also relied upon as a defensive weapon if they were forced to survive ashore while awaiting recovery. The pistols were turned over to replacement crew members as they came aboard but it became obvious that there was a shortage of the .45 pistols because by the time crews had been replaced, man for man, by the third time, there were few pistols to go around and the officers began retaining them for their own use and protection.
Each of these six boats had at least two 12 ga. shotguns for close combat but the Thompsons were preferred over all other small arms. These Div 17 boats had the drum magazines and could really belch fire. An added feature was that they used the same ammo as their pistols, which helped with the logistics of procuring ammo.
It will all be in the book- with pictures one day- I hope. The thought process among these Div 17 guys was very interesting. They felt abandoned, alone, unsupported and, therefore, expendable. But they defied and conquored the odds. The enemy was not their only problem, for sure.
Allan
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PeterTareBuilder
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Posted on: Sep 19, 2008 - 11:05pm
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Hi Allan.
My understanding is tha the Stinger refrred to earlier was indeed a .30 caliber machine gun.
I noticed in reading one of the booklets issue to PT crewmen that there were also .45 caliber rounds loaded with tracer to be used for signalling.
Cheers from PeterTareBuilder
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