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 Author  Topic: The real Todd City
Shaneo2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Shaneo2  Posted on: Nov 29, 2020 - 12:27pm
Thanks Jeff,

The dorade vent was last seen by me in 2012. It was sitting outside the dive shop next to Agnes Lodge as sort of a "nautical prop display"- much like a garden gnome in a garden. The shop had yet to explain what it was for the visiting tourist.

The 2009 scuba dive I organized (and paid for)- came across many things- including the debris area for the one PT boat in shallow water- lots of bits and pieces, wood parts deep in sand, monel and SS screws in the wood, items from the galley, .45 rounds (live), metal bits, face boards for gauges, insulated wire, some wooden frames, some of these items I saw previously in 2008 also- while visiting with Aussie Paul. What might be of some interest is this shallow debris area is apparently still being "discovered"-even in 2019.

I also found out why this debris stuff was all in bits and pieces just by chance and probably mentioned here b-4.

After the war a ex-pat went over and blew the PT boat remains apart with explosives etc. "salvaging". I told this to another research group in an email, so when/if they *discover* that little factoid, people here might become re-informed to it again...lol.

Incidentally, it was Brian Diva the Dive Master (in rashy in pic) who noticed just the rim (of the vent) barely sticking out of the sand and pointed it out to me. I gently moved my hand back and forth exposing what it was.The dive shop gathered it for display. I like to credit all Solomon locals in the islands- as sometimes people going out there for history -do not- and the locals are the reason for many of my successful finds.

Last I seen Brian still works at thedive shop, so if visiting Munda on New Georgia ask him the story of the vent find.

I have sent some of my PT/aircraft wreck info and photos to Justin over at Pacific Wrecks and hope to encourage him to post some of my info about Rendova Harbor on there too, so hopefully someday you guys can see more. Justin has been a "huge" help with aircraft remains I came across and posted some of them there @ the PW site.

I am always glad to see many here are still working to keep PT history alive and look forward to the article on Todd City.

Cheers-


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Drew Cook

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Drew Cook  Posted on: Nov 29, 2020 - 1:15pm
Shaneo,

You say "online there is a photo of ...PT pods" in Rendova harbor.

Where online?


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Shaneo2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Shaneo2  Posted on: Nov 29, 2020 - 1:29pm
Hi Drew,

I just googled "Todd City" and went over to images section- there it shows a BW photo from 6 days ago along with the painting in the article.


Further note: I wish I had this photo when I visited the Solomons. I am not formerly trained in photo work, nor have acedemic papers on the wall etc, but some things some of you all may help with and I find interesting myself:

LP = Left PT Pod (Port)
RP = Right PT Pod (Starboard)
Motu = small barrier reef island in background

On the RP one can see the water discoloration line in the background and further on exposed reef. Also on the RP the boat closest to the camera almost appears to have a different paint scheme- or maybe this is just optics?

In between the two pods looks to be another vessel(?) If so is the slight blurring exhaust fumes, or possible debris, or water on the camera lens?

The first thing I noted (not being of PT boat study myself), is the motu in the background. I believe I went ashore there in 2009 briefly to talk with an old man- he lived on the island with two others. From him I learned Rendova Harbor also had PBY's during the war. Anyway, I did not wander around the small island- now from seeing the photo I wish I had. Also, I think from the Rendova Harbor chart this island had the benchmark, or survey mark point.

Notice when you enlarge the photo and the motu--see the straight line shadow that goes left to right (start at the LP to help reference) across the background light through the trees - this tells me there may have been some facility on this motu. Then moving further right on the motu a more obscured straight line exists I'm almost thinking Quonset hut, or other type of building?

Anyway, one photo-- and if I would've had it- I would have changed about my whole areas of search to some extent..




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Shaneo2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Shaneo2  Posted on: Nov 29, 2020 - 4:07pm
Interesting. I got out my notebook from 2009 Solomons trip and page on/about the scuba dive- and then I compared the photo angles from the BW photo and my GE lat/long of what I suspected may have been an mooring (?)

This BW photo is possibly taken from the area of my GPS note: "big Moor"---from which I did the GPS hit on with air bag to the surface, so "possibly" another pod location?

Again, great thanks to the author!




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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 6:58am
Thanks again Shaneo, sorry to hear that the cowl vent is MIA... I think the Elco cowls are exceptionally attractive with their smooth curve blends and the total lack of a lollipop on a stick look. It took me many frustrating hours trying to duplicate it in 3D until I found a rather complicated way to do it. Ah yes simple minds simple pleasures.

Is this the photo you mentioned finding?:

jFjfs.jpg

PT 117 after the Todd City attack:

jFpFH.jpg

PT 164 with a LCM on the left, she really took a hit:

jFQ74.jpg



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Drew Cook

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Drew Cook  Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 10:43am
Thanks, Jeff (and Shaneo)!

I've never seen that great photo before of the 80' Elcos moored together in Rendova harbor. Its pretty interesting, with two boats having the SCR-517A "beehive" radars, and none showing the original "A"-frame mast, with the possible exception of one maybe peeking up at the extreme right on an unseen boat.

I can't help but think one of those 80' Elcos moored together may be the famous/infamous 109, and those radar-equipped boats were two of the four section leaders the night of August 1-2 1943.

Is that speck of land behind them Lumbari, supposedly?

Thanks again. I can't get enough of photos of PTs "in the area." in almost 60 years of reading about and casually researching WWII PT boats, I've never seen that great photo.


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Shaneo2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Shaneo2  Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 12:10pm
Jeff,

Thanks for the photos, yes that is the one (photo) I saw online. In regards to the vessel next to the beached 164- I reckon that is a LCVP. I have located what I suspect to be one (sunken) in the Solomons also.




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Shaneo2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Shaneo2  Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 12:53pm
Drew,

LP = Left PT Pod (Port)
RP = Right PT Pod (Starboard)
Motu = small barrier reef island in background (I will call OBS Motu)

The motu in there near background is probably this barrier island located on GE:

08 23 970 S 157 18 640 E

From the copy of the British chart c1893 of Rendova Harbor this is where the OBS spot was noted, same with the US chart from WW-II. The British chart gives some soundings across the reef in 1893, the US chart just shows "foul ground" and a solid reef- between Lumbari island and OBS Motu there.

So again I suspect in daylight one could actually run a PT boat across this area of "foul ground". This would be much more convenient in a quick exit and to get to Kiru Kiru where I believe they kept fuel (?), from other readings.

In the past I noted LCVP craft bringing what appeared to be sand/coral fill when constructing the new PT base from photo's. I suspect (thinking out loud) that they simply went over to the area between Bau and Pau island and dredged in the inlet there. There is a large square cement block over there the locals showed me- that may be a mooring?

That being said maybe they dredged the foul ground between Lumbari and OBS Motu also.

Notice the RP PT's and look "beyond" the bows of the vessels and exposed reef etc. See that vague outline of the island in the distance? That would be across the channel and over on the New Georgia side.

I found a photo I took of our airbags we sent to the surface on the dive- using the "eyeball" method, as mentioned one bag seems to be where the Pod photo is taken "from", and the other (which I don't think I noted for some reason), almost looks to be in the area of that mooring line extending sharply to the right direction on the far right boat from the LP.

I was looking for boat debris and items on the dive so what I thought were maybe makeshift mooring weights would have only gotten bare attention then..

On can use simple eyeball and GE ruler triangulation against the photo tell one almost exactly where these boats are located in the harbor.

One must remember that the bottom sand is always shifting, so what some people see one year, may not be there 5-10 years later, as it may be covered in sand.


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29navy

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of 29navy  Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 1:26pm
I used the picture of the anchored boats with my article. I scanned it from the National Archives.

Here's a something I scanned from the PT Boat HQ archives showing the layout of Lumbari.

jFZyM.jpg

To refresh everyone's memory, here is something that was posted here in a earlier conversation about Rendova Harbor.

jFhDJ.jpg

Charlie

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Shaneo2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Shaneo2  Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 2:04pm
Charlie,

Great mud map! The channel area between Lumbari and Kuru Kuru is the deep water Western entrance. I don't recall of any US Destroyer loss in the harbor, so that is somewhat perplexing?

Also, in the US 1944 chart of Rendova Harbor there is no note of sunken vessels in that area. From the mud map in the direction of "Munda".. is the way to the photo PT pods posted here on the topic.

In your overhead shot of Renedova Harbor the: "unnamed island" is what I call "OBS Motu" in my text/replies previously here on the topic.

Now, as it is well known to locals even when I was there in 2008, and possibly mentioned to me in 1981. What you have drawn as the: "Mitsubishi bomber" is also the general area of the boat debris field. I suspect the the two are co-mingled - first maybe done in war to just move junk around from active use areas- then latter (post war) whoever salvaged items probably consolidated the debris for scraping purpose's- which would make sense.

In going through that debris area in 2008/2009, it seemed odd that some of the aluminum bits seemed to be from a aircraft- not what I would assume to be on a PT boat. In 2009 some of the locals I was with also showed me a small bit of what they said was human bone seen among the U/W debris while we were looking. I asked if they were sure, and all were certain it was.

I talked to Ronnie Day several times on the phone while he was still alive, some was about the PT's, but also the B-24 wreck inland- really nice gentleman RIP. His book is on Amazon.


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