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David Buck
TOP BOSS
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 Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 3:08pm
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Thanks Ted for the Google images,
Here are a few of the things that helped me look a little closer at the wreck in image 5. One of the things that helped is that I am looking at a rather larger screen than a normal monitor so small details are a lot easer to pick out of the images
The !974 photo is a big help here , after looking at it for a while and the google images I wondered about the orientation of the hull to what appears back then to be some form of walkway, (which over the years has been turned into a road Ted is calling this the pier at the end of the road but by the time that the photo was taken she had I think moved into the cove), it is not impossible that at some point since the photo that the river herself has lifted the hull and moved her closer to the shoreline. Wrecks tend to end up in places that you don't expect them, and as she was made of timber this is quite possible.
Image 5 clearly shows what I believe to be the PT59,
Image 3 shows the pier at the right of the image that has decayed over time at the end of the road and extends into the Harlem river, with the 59 boat further into the cove, this is possibly the pier that she first sunk at.
So looking at image 5 here are a few things that I found interesting, the first is the row of timbers at the right hand side of the "pier", looking at the transom of an Elco boat there were a number of supports that ran top to bottom and also at quite an angle from vertical, it is a little hard to see in the google images but an angle can be seen to these "posts" ok not much but if you look at the spacing of these posts they correlate very closely to the Elco transom supports if one can find the utube videos and images they help as a side view rather than an overhead view is obtained, it shows that all of these posts are in line at the same angle, again not much but looking at it with the knowledge of the Elco construction it is a little interesting.
Plus posts that are driven into the bottom at an angle are generally round not square and over time tend to move so that they no longer line up, where as these are all square and line up quite well, also if they had been placed there to support an end pier post (which would have been quite substantial) then they would be there as well but they are not?.
Next when one looks to the pier at the end of the road in image 3 the main thing that stands out are the pier supports, as we all know these are mostly made of timbers around 12-20 inches in dia. and are spaced around three feet apart along the length of a rather large support beam, ref image 3, have a look at image 5 and try to find them.
Next why do the crossbeams in image 5 that jut out into the water have no form of support (ie piers) until they meet a beam that runs from end to end nearly a third of the way into the structure and where are the piers along this beam.
Also looking at this support beam most piers that I know have the support beams overlapping when they meet for strength not butt joined.
There are three full length beams in view, if you remove the middle one (I will get to it) the other two line up rather nicely with the Elco drawings of the deck, the middle beam is the keel, over time the hull has collapsed as most wooden hulls do so the keel has been pushed up by the action of the cove silting up and now rests under the deck.
OK there are other things that helped point out that I was looking at the 59 boat but someone that is a little closer and can also look a little closer with a PT Boat interest as a guide will help.
If further images will help try Utube for
Inwoods North Cove Restoration:Raw Data-C
This is a 20.15 minute video with the wreck running from 10.30-1315.
In the video the person filming walks from one end of her to the other, there are about three minutes all up however there are about 9 videos altogether some with her in, so there are lots of different scenes of her from different angles.
Will if you do get a chance to have a look you will note that there is really not much left of her but if some one does not have a look then we may just miss out on something that we all enjoy talking about.
Dave |
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TED WALTHER
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 4:59pm
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David;
We have had a few people down there in the past, but I am running the photos through them to make sure.
Take care,
TED
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Lew Zee
Advanced Member
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Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 10:11pm
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Food for thought...
IF the CG pulled it further in (without rotating) it looks like the bottom overlay would match. The 20 and 77 foot dimensions are for reference and were measured on Google Earth. Can't tell with how much settling, tides, winds, deterioration, or vandalism may have distorted the remains.
Lew
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William Doyle
Advanced Member
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Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 4:26am
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Lew and Ted:
Thank you for this interesting discussion! Have a look at the video, starting at 11:45:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ju2C0YQNNU
It includes closeups of metal pieces and long shapes of wood. I can't tell if this shows simply the ruins of a pier mixed with local junk, or something else. Some of it might be metal railings from the SEA BREEZE V. Does any of this detritus look like its PT-related? If so, perhaps the Coast Guard simply pushed the remains into the junk pile of the collapsed pier.
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TED WALTHER |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 6:27am
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Bill and Lew;
Very interesting. However, most boats were cut down to at least 65' to get around Coast Guard requirements. PT 48 is actually listed on USCG documents as being 59' long.
Take care,
TED
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Lew Zee
Advanced Member
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Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 3:19pm
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That modified length sounds about right when looking at the Sea Queen V photo (when it was operating) as well as the sunk photo. I was just doing a rough estimate on the handrail stanchions to get a rough estimate of the boat's length an it does look shorter than 77 feet.
Just the overall look at the beam at the transom looks wider than the full length Elco 77.
The one person who could have clarified this matter, Donald K. Schmahl, the owner of Sea Queen V, died October 2015.
Then the question is, what can be done with the remains in such poor condition? I doubt anyone would do any massive and costly reconstruction. Perhaps a few boats could be recovered and sent to a PT boat museum for display.
Lew Zee |
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TED WALTHER
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 4:06pm
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Lew;
That's too bad, I wonder if any of his family remembers. Captain Gus Marinak owned her before Schmahl, her name was then "SUN TAN". She sailed out of the Bronx then.
TED
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David Buck
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 5:11pm
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Ted and Lew,
If either of you know how to get in touch with either family then maybe some answers could found. I have found in the past that family members are quite willing to assist in this sort of endeavor if approached in the right manner.
As far as what could be done with the remains well the sky's the limit as they say, from just the fact that she has been put back on the map to a full restoration, it all depends on who is interested and how far they would like to go.
I personally think that finding the funds to raise her in the first place is going to be quite hard and would present many a problem however as one of the last 77' boats that is still around she does present a bit of an opportunity, One that a bit of time and effort once a working plan was in place would be rather rewarding!
Dave |
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Jerry Gilmartin |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 10:40pm
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Hi guys,
This is all very interesting conjecture, I looked at the video and found it hard to imagine the size of those deck beams being correct for a 77 foot Elco. It looks like those are 2x6 beams on the deck and almost looks like the type of beams used to construct a dock. They appear way to heavy to be part of a PT Boat and I have been inside PT796 and PT617 and have done reconstruction on PT658 so I feel I have a unique perspective to be able to judge these things. However, the location makes me keep asking what else could it be? All that aside, to have any ideas of actually raising that rotten piece of junk and trying to rebuild it into a working boat is about the silliest thing I have ever heard. All of those beams are certainly rotten all the way through and would never hold up to even the most basic inspection for being re-used. All you could do at best would be to clean all of the excess junk off of it and display it as a rotten wreck of a former PT Boat! That being said, it is a sad end for such a noble boat. The guys in New Orleans started with a whole lot better specimen of the original PT305, and even then, they had to replace most every board in the entire hull. David, I admire your zeal for preserving historic objects, but I think it is not even a remote possibility that this boat ever be saved no matter how much money you had to spend on attempting it. I think it would be better served by just removing the wreckage from the cove and making it pristine again for all those geese and ducks and wild birds to enjoy without the yucky rotted garbage dump that this boat has become. Thanks for bringing this subject up I had no idea this boat wreck even existed.
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
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David Buck
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Jan 17, 2016 - 12:19am
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Hi Jerry,
Yes I agree with you about the effort needed to restore what is left in the cove to a working boat, I was just putting forward an answer as to what could be done if one was so inclined, but it would still be a lot easer to restore the 48 boat compared to the 59, I started this because it appeared that she had been forgotten when with a bit of effort her remains could be identified and at least she could be put back on the map, as the story going around was that she had been dredged up and disposed of.
So I decided to do a bit of digging myself to see if there was anything left and look what I found!
No plans to rebuild her just wanted to let the guys know she was still there and before they do get rid of her maybe one or two might like to visit her and get a few photos
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Out of interest the JFK library may like a nod, sometimes that sort of enterprise can look at things a little differently to you and I, and as there is a push on to save the cove from being concreted over by those that are taking the videos maybe they would also like to know of the history of what they have there, little things like that may help them reach their goal.
So Jerry haven't quite lost the plot yet, just like digging around into PT Boat History to see what I can come up with, and you know sometimes you find something, that makes it all worthwhile.
Dave |
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