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 Author  Topic: PT 38 1944 1945
  TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: Dec 31, 2015 - 8:12am
Charlie;
Thanks for the photos, good thing Nick Scutti wasn't caught, being on the wrong side of John Ford was not a good thing.
That being said, we now need to focus on finding info on the refloat scene and the beach scene.
Take care,
TED


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Michael Vorrasi

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Michael Vorrasi  Posted on: Dec 31, 2015 - 8:35am
Ted, in looking at the bogus depression railing around the 50 cal turrets on the trailer mockup, and then comparing these to the same on the beached burning 34 boat, I'm wondering if a floating mockup was not also used there. They would only need to take that framework build the other side and put it on a barge or underwater dolly, maybe a flying boat beaching dolly or similar. Also, looking at the 34 boat in the towed off the reef scenes, look at the deck across the transom. No deck overhang as it should be. To my eyes, that whole boat looks too short to be a 77 footer. Something is amiss there.

Mike

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bubbletop409

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of bubbletop409  Posted on: Dec 31, 2015 - 2:10pm
OK, I give up. It appears Dick and I were posting at the same time. I went back and looked at the previous discussion on this matter that he referenced. First time I saw most of those photos.

The one picture shown of the 34 boat after the strafing/explosion with Mr. Brickley holding the mast, does appear to show a 77' style cabin in the wreckage.

Larry
62 Bel-Air
260 Eagle EXP
79 Cole TR-2

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David Buck

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Buck   Send Email To David Buck Posted on: Jan 1, 2016 - 2:17am
Hi, Re the mockup Burning boat scene on the beach if one looks to the 77' boats construction as far as the deck goes this was made of plywood whereas the 80' boats were double planked ref. Al Ross Allied Coastal Forces of World War 11. Also if we blow the photo up it can be seen that there is only one layer of planking not two on the mockup, and if we look under the decking we can see two things that do not fit,
One being what looks to be a 50 gallon drum holding the deck section up.
Two looking aft of the drum under the deck it can be seen that there is no hull supporting the deck, only clear water
As a side note if we look at the PT King web site we can see what happens to a 77' boat when there is high explosive damage to it this takes the form that the deck of the boat is mostly missing while the hull has sustained very little damage and is what has survived where as in the beach scene the opposite is portrayed.

Anyway that my 2 cents worth.

Yours,

D.buck

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David Buck

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Buck   Send Email To David Buck Posted on: Jan 1, 2016 - 3:19am
Hi,
Triva for those interested,
In the scene where Wayne is talking to his Exc. who has just emerged from under the Boat, note that the boat does not seem to have any rudders or props.
As the boat is towed of the reef Wayne and his Exc. haul a prop out of the water, aside from the fact that this would have been done earlier when the props would have been removed note that the Exc. hauls up a smaller prop than Wayne and both appear undamaged
Re. the Boat on the Marine railway it appears that we only see the port side however at one point during the scenes of talking to the Submarine Captain we get a short shot over Dads shoulder with the starboard side of the boat in the background.
At the marine railway we get the impression that they have only just started work on the Boat yet during the back and forward shots when Dad yells at the worker to leave the water barrel alone there does not appear to be any damage to the port rear hull.
Also at this time the boat now has its rudders and props back or was this scene shot first and then the scene on the reef later.

Just one or two little things that can be picked up if you watch this movie enough.(all in fun to)

Yours,

D.buck

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Michael Vorrasi

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Michael Vorrasi  Posted on: Jan 1, 2016 - 4:03pm
Hi Guys. I think I have figured out the mystery. There was a prop boat, made up to look like an Elco 80. It was free floating and might have been a converted yacht or a purpose built mock up. . (If you see all the stuff in the book that you think were real in the movie, it will bring a grin to the face of any TWE fan. ) Hopefully Larry can help out here again and scan the photo on page 66. (The change from Windows 98 has K.O'd my scanner. No new drivers for it. Gotta love that Gates guy.) Anyway, back to the shot on page 66. Here we see the prop boat followed by a real 80 Elco. Once you see them side by side, you will laugh out loud at how the prop men tricked us all these years!

Iksnay on it being a 77 hull either. Sorry Ted, it isn't the 38. The boat is drastically shorter than a real 80 (or a 77 too) The entire hull ends where the engine room hatch is on a real 80. Compare the distances between chart house and stern, and the spacing of the mock-up torpedo tubes and starboard turret compared to the real 80 Elco just aft of it. You can see the charthouse, while close, is not a real 80 Elco one, and there just isn't enough boat behind it! The forward turret is about evenly amid-ships. Compare with the trailing real boat. . Once you study it, you will see all the spacial relationships are off. And the clincher, look at that boxy stern and the amazingly high free-board, especially aft. No 80 Elco sat that high,even with no engines. And it sure couldn't be a 77, as they sat even lower aft. It's a big box with a hard chine rail on the front. No.they definitely had a prop boat and that is what we see at the reef scene and in the beaching scene. (Although I still think the final sunken 34 scene is a pile of wood with a spare 77 chart house on it.) Those who have the book, see what you think.

Mike

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  TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: Jan 1, 2016 - 5:54pm
Mike;
The PT 38 issue with TWE is now over. I received this message from Chip Marshall last night:
"One thing I do remember reading was the burning boat was a "half PT" built by Miami Shipbuilding. The used the open backside to squirrel away flotation barrels and the pyrotechnics for filming. I'll stand on my version of events regarding the burning boat on the beach. I got that information at the Museum of South Florida in Miami. They have a file on the filming of They Were Expendable. And I spoke with the Miami Shipbuilding's owner's son, he confirmed the contract. It came up because Miami Shipbuilding did the three PT boat conversions for the PT 109 movie shot in the Keys but did not build the right side up and up side down foredeck of the 109 used for the post-ramming scenes and some of the air raid shots simulating a sunken PT."
So even though this story is over.......PT 38 is still a mystery.
Take care,
TED






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Michael Vorrasi

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Michael Vorrasi  Posted on: Jan 2, 2016 - 6:27am
Well, I guess we have TWE sorted out after 70 years. It is a tribute to the Hollywood special effects crew on this film that all this went undetected for so long. I guess that is why they won a well deserved special effects Oscar for the film. Still remains one of John Ford's masterpieces. Many feel it was his best film of all. The book gave me a new appreciation of what went into it. As for the 38, well, we can still hold out hope that it might exist somewhere...!
Happy New Year to all.

Mike

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Chip Marshall

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Feb 6, 2016 - 9:27am
I'm going to throw something in here that may or may not clear some things up. About 10 years ago I met Jene Buhler, one of the sons of the Miami Shipbuilding owner, for lunch in Miami. The purpose of the meeting was discussing Miami Shipbuilding's refurbishment of a German S-boat for the intelligence community (another story). We also discussed the movies They Were Expendable and PT-109.

During the TWE part of the discussion (not very long), Jean explained the company's involvement with They Were Expendable that was being shot not too far away at Key Biscayne. They had a support role to make sure the boats were operating and received necessary maintenance on Warner Bros. dime. Warner Bros. commissioned a local boat yard (I THINK is was Miami Shipbuiilding, but I don't remember that part of the conversation) to build a half boat for this specific scene. Details? I have nothing other than the boat was built and used for the movie. Lots of questions I didn't ask: why not an 80' boat for continuity, why not take an old boat and blow it up? Guess answers: the right hand and the left hand didn't know concerning which boat. And a "boat" custom built with special effects and pyrotechnics in mind would be better for control than using a well built, but old PT boat. Anybody with explosives or demo experience please chime in here.

Please remember this was a small part of a conversation about many things PT boat (and S-boat). By the way, the S-boat in question was the S-116. But, like I said, another story.

Chip Marshall
Silver Spring, Maryland USA

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Jimbo Melanson

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Feb 6, 2016 - 1:04pm
I have to agree with Ted. The boat on the rail ways, the first boat to get blasted by the shore batteries, the boat getting pulled off the coral after the beer run, and the boat blown up on the beach were all a PT 20 class MTB. If you look at the boat when she is on the ways you can see the patch job on the bow to remove some of the reverse sheer out of the stem to look like a 103 class boat. Also when ever they blow the plywood structure off of the boat you can see the aluminum structure bridge under the mock up. SO the book may not be exact. 77 foot Elco was used in the movie along with the 103 class and Huckins PT's.

Jimbo

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