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TheBridge
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Posted on: Apr 20, 2010 - 7:33am
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Ted - thanks for the pointing to Dick's color video posting. It's great to get historical accuracy which is now able to be pieced together to an greater degree by combining the B/W photos, color video and information some of the PT's crews today (lucky we still have that even now)
As delivered from ELCO the PT had the [nice] white numbers we've seen in the more PR related photos (officers with ties and everyone smiling)
The changes of white PT boat number lettering moving to grey come together this way based on this and the conversations this past weekend with William 'Bud' Liebenow and Welford West of the PT-157
According to 'Bud' Liebenow (Skipper of the PT-157) they spent about 4 months in the Panama area in training with the crew and at this point the boats are still the original grey color. In the case of the PT-157 it was at this time (in Panama) that the 157's Motor Mac, Harry Armstrong, painted on the aces 'n' eights card deck logo with 'aces 'n' eights painted in script just below it.
There is nothing to indicates the 'grey' number were applied in Panama.
Now the boats and crews are shipped to the South Pacific
Welford West (Torpedo man for PT-157) said that the PTs were dry docked soon after arrival and in Talagi, the main home base for PT operations, and there assigned paint crews (not the PT boat crews!) then painted the PTs the color schemes (usually green as we know).
Looking at the videos (that Dick has posted) pointed out, and in the case of the PT-157 photo around the 'aces 'n' eights' script, these areas appear to have been masked off from painting.
Also, Welford said the windows on the PT-157 were painted over (not by the PT crews so assume by the Talagi paint crews) to eliminate light reflections (sun/moon) and to comply with blackout rules and allow crews to use the cabin at night. Welford said they often played cards in the cabins at night so this makes perfect sense.
Conclusion is that on many boats the background areas around the logo/s, if they had any, would have been original PT grey as they were masked off by the Talagi paint crews.
An assumption is that it may have been the USN Talagi paint crews who may have then painted over the white portions of the boat numbers on the front and cabin/turret sides with a dark grey to avoid spotting the bright whiteness from the air or from enemy searchlights.
NOTE however that some of the early series PT (i.e. the 109) as well as later series (i.e. the 500 number) are showing the bright white letter indicating that the painting of grey numbers was done for only a period of time.
Specific to the PT-157, it appears unlike the masking of the complex logo images of other PT (those who had them that is) the squareness of the cards allowed the paitng crews to mask the card deck (of the aces 'n' eights) easy as the clear B/W photos show no evidence of paint shades differences right up the card's edges. However if you look at the area around the script of 'aces 'n' eights just below the card deck you do see that background in this area is a bit lighter indicating it is in all likelihood the original grey.
Is this still model building? I think so. Model building for me is a way to look in the the details of history.
Bridge
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TED WALTHER
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 Posted on: Apr 20, 2010 - 10:51am
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BRIDGE;
I tried to use your e-mail address, but I think i had too many photos attached, because it came back to me, I will resend later today. in it you will see, PT 157 had a 20mm on a MK12 scarf ring mount in the STBD gun turret.
take care,
TED
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TED WALTHER
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Posted on: Apr 20, 2010 - 4:32pm
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Bridge;
I tried again with fewer photos, it came back again with fatal errors, contact me at my e-mail and I will send you the photos.
take care,
TED
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TheBridge
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Posted on: Apr 21, 2010 - 8:21am
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Hi Ted,
I did get an email from you with 3 photos. Thanks.
I sent you a reply direct to your email. Check it out and let me know!
Best regards,
Bridge
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Gary Szot
MASTER
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Posted on: Apr 21, 2010 - 12:52pm
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Sample of red and white lettewring
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TheBridge
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Posted on: Apr 21, 2010 - 5:15pm
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Hi Gary - thanks for the photo! I wish it were red on the PT-157 as it really pops nicely. However....
Per Dick's video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqCkBy30JI4
....And in conversation with both Bud Liebenow (Capt PT-157) and Welford West (Torpedo man on the PT-157) last weekend they were quite clear that the numbers were not red. They don't recall when the number were changed from white to the darker shade seen in various B/W photos of the PT-157. The boats were painted by sore based paint crews and this is too small a detail for them to have been concerned about at the time apparently.
The best clue comes from color video posted by Dick that includes some other PTs of RON 9 which the PT-157 was a part of! The conclusion is now that the the PT-157 had the same color numbering (dark grey) as its sister ships seen in the video.
Bridge
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Wayne Traxel |
MASTER
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Posted on: Apr 24, 2010 - 9:19am
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I became acquainted with William (Bud) Liebenow in the late 80's and early 90's when I built a scratchbuilt 1/24th scale PT-157 "aces n Eights". His biggest complaint back then was that modelers wouldn't put a 20mm in the foreward turret as the real 157 had and I assured that wasn't going to happen with this model. At the time he said he couldn't remember much but you could have fooled me on that one. He very knowlegeable about his trade was one of the nicest and most patient technical advisors. Back then there were no computers or cell phones and all coorespondence was snail mail. The hardest part of the model was locating info for the Mk-12 20mm it took years to find a good photo of one and it was finally finished in time to display at the 1993 PT Boat National Reunion in Milwaukee. As always the case, years later after the model was gone, I found more detailed photos and written info about the Mk-12 mount. In February of 1944 Bud left the 157 for a new assignment in England operating PT-199 with Ron 2 (2) in clandestine missions off the coast of France prior to D-Day when 199 was painted Pink to blend in with the fog of the English Channel when illuminated by German seach lights. During D- Day operations Mr. Liebenow, crew and a now repainted grey PT-199 were on the scene for well over 24 hours.
Mr. Liebenow also wrote an excellent Article entitled "The Incident" , featured in the PT newsletter and the Knights of the Seas publication. Bud's a really great guy.
1/24th scale scratchbuilt RC PT-157 October 1993
1/24th scale scratchbuilt RC PT-157 October 1993 heading into the wind.
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Frank J Andruss Sr
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Posted on: Apr 24, 2010 - 12:40pm
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Wayne, that model looks awesome. Do you still have her in your collection. Boy finding figures 17 years ago must have been a real joy....................
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TheBridge
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Apr 24, 2010 - 12:59pm
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Beautiful shots of your model cutting its bow wake across the waves!!
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Drew Cook
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Posted on: Apr 24, 2010 - 1:08pm
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Wayne,
I've always thought your model of the 157 was great, and now, we get to see the port side!
-- Drew
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