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TGConnelly
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Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 3:25pm
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Drew,
I repeat -- the only three known photos of the 109 in the forward area taken from an angle that the mast could be seen SHOW NO RAISED MAST!
OK ........ RAISED mast. RAISED is the operative word here. What I'm SAYING LITERALLY is that she did have a mast ...........
Garth
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Drew Cook
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Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 4:05pm
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Possibly, Garth, but...
What would be the purpose of keeping the mast in its folded-down position on the dayroom canopy, when it could be removed alltogether?
My point is that those masts were somewhat superfluous to the performance and fighting of the boats in the forward area, and not really needed. It stands to reason that many of them -- including the 109's -- would simply have been removed.
Photos of other early 103-class Elco 80-footers in the forward area without masts, where the tops of the dayroom canopies can be clearly seen, don't usually show the masts laying flat in the folded-down position -- the masts aren't there at all.
The only photo of early Elco 80-footers at Tulagi I've seen with masts is on page 99 of Frank D. Johnson's "United States PT-Boats of World War II In Action," and one of them has a SCR-517A "beehive" radar dome (one of Kelly's Ron 9 boats?). And, just across from that photo, on page 98, is another photo of some Ron 6 PTs at Tulagi -- in which no masts can be seen on any of their 80' Elcos.
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PeterTareBuilder
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Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 8:08pm
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Well that was timely.
If the masts were removed then I don't have to rebuild or build a repalcement for the oversize (ie. too long) 1/32 scale Lindbgerg mast. It makes transporting the model easier too as well as looking racier.
Thanks from Peter
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David Waples
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Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 8:18pm
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Wow. So Frank, thank you for reaching out to Mr. Kowal. With respect to Mr. Kowal and as Drew said there's not a single picture of the 109 with her mast up. There is one picture of the 109 I've ever seen with her mast and that was when she was loaded on the Joseph Stanton for transport. In this picture you will notice the mast in the stowed position which looks to be about a 15 degree angle. I'm not an expert on this so I don't know if this is normal or not. Looking at the photo of the 109 under way I see no evidence of a mast. In my copy of the photograph I can see the hand rails, helmets, and life vests and I think I would surely see a folded down mast if it existed. This is a pretty big feature and would surely be noticeable.
Once again I am only going by the visual evidence and that indicates to me that at the time JFK operated this boat, and probably before, it didn't have a visible mast. So do as you like but for me I've modeled it without a mast because that's what the visual evidence shows me. Here are the photos...
On the Stanton
Under way
Here is an uncensored picture of the 109 on a book cover...
PT King web site is currently down but check this one a little later and see if it comes up. You'll find the photo of the 109 prior to JFK and there is no visible mast.
http://www.geocities.com/pt_king/PT109article.html
Google PT-109 and you'll see the crew in front of the chart house and there is no visible mast.
So until you can show me a photo of the 109 with a mast, folded or otherwise, I remain unconvinced and that is how I choose to model my boat. Here are some older photos of how I modeled the 109. I actually replaced the 20mm with a john Haynes set. As soon as I've completed it I'll post some pictures...
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Frank J Andruss Sr
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 Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 9:01pm
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David:
The model looks awesome by the way. This should go into my Exhibit when completed (ha, ha). I think at this point, we certainly have some arguments as to the mast on the boat. In the down or stored position, the mast does take up considerable space on the dayroom cabin, and is pretty easy to spot. There is no doubt that she had the mast when she was dropped into the boat basin at Elco, and again on her way to the War Zone.
When and if the mast was removed is a mystery. I again took the chance to call Mr. Kowal, who politely told me, he was not sure if the mast was there or not. He remembers going into drydock to have the boat worked on, shortly after Kennedy took command. He clearly remembers the commissioning hanging from the mast, but then stated, "Maybe we took it off sometime later". This again proves nothing, because clearly Mr. Kowal was having a tough time remembering. I mean how often does the subject of a mast come up, and how many PT Crew can remember such things some 65 years later.
When all is said and done, from a modelers point of view, you would not be wrong building the boat with or without. In viewing several photographs, it certainly looks like the mast is not present, so who could argue. Good luck on the model, it really looks great. I look forward to seeing more photo's and putting this in my Exhibit (once again ha, ha)
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David Waples
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Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 9:27pm
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Thanks Frank and well said. It's what makes you happy I think. The boat definitely looks better with the mast. It actually looks undressed without it. Thanks for the compliments and we'll look forward to finishing this kit sometime in the coming months.
Right now I'm completing a 1/700 model of the APA Geneva for my wife's family. Talk about tedious! 1/700 20mm Oerlikons. I must be insane.
Once she's completed I'll be finishing up the 109. I'm also doing a laser engraved base for her out of maple and it will have a proper Elco cradle as well. It should be stunning.... I hope. :-)
Dave
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Allan
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Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 9:40pm
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Interesting subject... out of curiosity I just viewed photos of my Division 17 boats with respect to the masts. I have one photo each of three of the six boats at Tufi and not one of them has a mast in a raised position or in view at all as lowered. And a Barclay sketch of the 114 (a fourth boat of the six) shows that boat on patrol with no mast shown. I know that at least two of those boats flew their commissioning pennants from the antennas. Two reasons have been offered by vets. But the most obvious is simply that there was nowhere else to fly it from since they were obviously operating without masts. Interesting- I would like to know the reasoning, beyond the obvious maneuvering under the jungle growth, etc. Perhaps there is more- there usually is !! But maybe it was just that simple.
Allan
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David Waples
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Posted on: Apr 3, 2009 - 4:26am
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Hi Allan,
We would sure love to see those photos. Is it possible to have them digitized?
Thank you
Dave
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David Waples
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Posted on: Apr 3, 2009 - 4:40am
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I found the image of the 109 before JFK had her and the web site I pointed out is back on line. Those Yahoo sites are like that... in and out of sight like ghosts. It has a very well done story of the 109. I've also added some photos of her sister ships in route to Rendova. Notice they have their masts intact and erect. This was shortly before the sinking of the 109.
109 with survivors of the USS Northampton
Sister ships in route to Rendova
If there is interest in the color just do a search and you'll find plenty of debate on that subject too. There are some good color photos that have helped us come closer to solving that mystery too.
Dave
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TGConnelly
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Posted on: Apr 3, 2009 - 7:33am
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With due respect to David and Drew.
I still stand my statement of the 109 having a mast ...........
This is much ado about nothing ... a tempest in a teapot.
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