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 Author  Topic: sleeve rank placement
Dick

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Dick   Send Email To Dick Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 12:12am
THIS IS FROM THE NAVAL HISTORY WEBSITE: (Department of the Navy, Naval Historical Center)

Petty Officer Rating Badge Locations and Eagle Designs

Related Resources: Ratings (Jobs) of Enlisted Personnel in the U.S. Navy

The uniform regulations of 19 February 1841 introduced a sleeve mark for the uniforms of petty officers consisting of an eagle facing left (from the wearer's perspective) with wings pointed down, while perched on a fouled anchor. It was to be worn half way between the elbow and shoulder on the front of the sleeve. Boatswain's Mates, Gunner's Mates, Carpenter's Mates, Masters at Arms, Ship's Stewards and Ship's Cooks wore it on the right sleeve while Quarter Masters, Quarter Gunners, Captains of the Forecastle, Captains of Tops, Captains of the Afterguard, Armorers, Coopers, Ship's Corporals and Captains of the Hold wore it on the left sleeve. It was difficult to distinguish between different ratings using this system.

The uniform regulations of 1 December 1866 introduced a system of rating badges, with eight specialty marks. Depending on design and where these badges were worn, thirteen ratings could be identified.

A petty officer rating badge incorporating an eagle, specialty mark and chevrons with points down was introduced in the uniform regulations of 1886. The eagle faced left with its wings pointed horizontally to the sides. The regulations specified that petty officers of the starboard watch were to wear rating badges on their right sleeves. The left sleeve was to be used for those on the port watch.

General Order 431, dated 24 September 1894, changed the eagle's wings to point upward, though the eagle continued to face to the left.

The uniform regulations of 25 January 1913 changed the location of rating badges so that ratings badges were no longer worn on the sleeves corresponding to assigned watches. Right arm rates were to signify men of the Seamen Branch; left arm rates were to be used by personnel of the Artificer Branch, Engine Room Force, and all other petty officers. The eagle continued to face left on all rating badges.

The uniform regulations of 31 May 1941 specified that the eagle was to face to the left in the rates comprising the Seaman Branch: Boatswain Mate, Turret Captain, Signalman, Gunner's Mate, Fire Controlman, Quartermaster, Mineman and Torpedoman's Mate. All other rating badges were to have an eagle facing to the right.

Right arm rates were disestablished 2 April 1949, after having been eliminated by Change #1, dated 24 February 1948, to the 1947 uniform regulations. All rating badges were to be worn on the left sleeve with the eagle facing to the right.


Dick . . .


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newsnerd99

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 12:22am
It's possible that was the uniform my grandfather wore for his brief time in 1950...and added the PT patch to it later? That would account for the discrepencies.

Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
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29navy

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of 29navy  Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 6:07am
OK, here's the official poop on the PT PTpatches:

On August 11, 1943, the Navy authorized, via Bureau of Personnel Circular Letter (BPCL) 153-43 as a change to the Uniform Regulations, the Patrol Torpedo Boat distinguishing mark consisting of the block letters “PT”. Enlisted men serving aboard PT Boats were authorized to wear this mark on the left sleeve of their blue and white uniform jumper, halfway between the wrist and elbow. The letters are to be embroidered in silk or rayon, in white on blue clothing and in blue on white clothing. Although not documented as authorized, the “PT” mark is also seen embroidered inside a diamond and a circle. It was also available in gray for the Chief Petty Officer grey uniform.

The block “PT” mark was replaced by the PT Boat shoulder insignia authorized September 14, 1944 via BPCL 265-44. This insignia was circular with a rope-design around the edge, inside were the letters “PT” and a torpedo with one line coming off the top and three coming off the bottom to signify the wake as the torpedo goes through the water. It is specified as being white on a Navy blue background. There is no white version for the white uniform as this is a shoulder patch signifying a special branch. It is very rare to see this patch on a white uniform. This insignia is to be worn on the left sleeve, the top to be ½-inch below the shoulder seam. While this was authorized for enlisted men, there was no special insignia or other badge for the PT Officers.

In the Circular Letter, it defines the wearers’ qualifications as “enlisted personnel regularly attached to motor torpedo boat squadrons. Enlisted personnel of the motor torpedo boat squadrons are considered to be those who have been designated as qualified to serve in motor torpedo boats and who are assigned to motor torpedo boat duty.” Personnel who were assigned to base components or tenders were not authorized to wear this insignia unless they were qualified and authorized to wear it from a previous assignment. The Navy only authorized four shoulder sleeve patches during WWII: Seabees, Amphibious Forces, Minecraft, and PT Boats.

The Disney Moquito patch was unauthorized, but tolerated.





Charlie

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Frank J Andruss Sr

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Frank J Andruss Sr   Send Email To Frank J Andruss Sr Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 6:28am
Thank You Charlie very much for the information. I will put it to good use.....


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QM

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 8:17am
I am pleased to learn that we were wearing an authorized PT patch.

I located some old pictures. My PT patch is on the left shoulder as described above.












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Dick

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Dick   Send Email To Dick Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 8:23am

James, it appears your grandfather's uniform is correct according to the above posts.





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newsnerd99

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 1:19pm
This is a good thread...but I'm still all over the place. I figured I go to the photographic evidence to see what's what. Here we go:

Boston, December 1943:



Boston, between January and April, 1944:



Norfolk, VA April 1944:



Miami, February 1946:



Miami, 1947:



It looks like it is opposite of what is on the uniform now? Again, it is highly likely this uniform is from his naval reserves time from 1947-1950.

Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net

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QM

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 2:19pm
I appreciate seeing the picture of the two with beers, one a right arm rate and the other a left arm rate. It appears that the eagle's head is facing forward on both. I could not find a picture of any left arm rates in my files and I was uncertain if my memory was correct until seeing this picture. The eagle always looks forward.

In the picture posted earlier, the QM patch is on the left sleeve, with the eagle's head facing back. It appears that the right arm patch has been moved to the left arm. I believe that would have been changed on post 1948 patches.

I really enjoy seeing the many pictures posted here.

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CJ Willis

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of CJ Willis  Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 2:26pm
I had a right arm rating - Torpedoman. Although I was a gunner at general quarters. My PT patch is on the left sleeve. I have my marriage photo to prove it.

C. J. Willis

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Frank J Andruss Sr

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Frank J Andruss Sr   Send Email To Frank J Andruss Sr Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 4:06pm
If you look at photo number 5, you will see one eagle facing left, and one facing right to indicate what I had said in an ealier post that which ever way the eagle was facing indicates which arm the rate was sewn onto. Also, you can clearly see the man on the left has the PT BOAT PATCH sewn on his opposite shoulder, which again proves what I had said about some uniforms I have in my Exhibit, with the PT BOAT PATCH on the other shoulder. This still leaves me back to square one. What side would the PT BOAT PATCH have been on if this man was a Pharmacist Mate?


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