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 Author  Topic: myth vs reality
alross2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of alross2   Send Email To alross2 Posted on: Mar 25, 2019 - 5:11pm
Has anyone ever seen official records listing the number of torpedoes expended by PTs vs the number of confirmed sinkings?

Al



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Stearman

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Stearman  Posted on: Mar 27, 2019 - 7:39pm
Ooops

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alross2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of alross2   Send Email To alross2 Posted on: Mar 28, 2019 - 3:35am
The MK14 was a submarine torpedo; PTs used the MK8.


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Will Day

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Will Day   Send Email To Will Day Posted on: Apr 1, 2019 - 4:51pm
NADA

Will

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David Waples

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Waples  Posted on: Apr 1, 2019 - 10:03pm
Is it still classified?


David Waples

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  Jerry Gilmartin

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jerry Gilmartin   Send Email To Jerry Gilmartin Posted on: Apr 2, 2019 - 9:49pm
Hello Doctor Ross!
I had to go back several years ago in (cough cough) Wikipedia and I had done a review of " At Close Quarters" and collated this list in the "Talk" section of the Wikipedia page named "PT Boat". I copied it here in case it is of any use to you. I do not have any real proof of any of this however, so take it or leave it. Still I hope it may help.
Jerry

Here is a little background research/information I came across concerning US PT Boat torpedo successes against the Japanese Navy (IJN) and the other axis powers (Germany, Italy) found in Robert J Bulkeleys authoritative book "At Close Quarters: PT Boats in the United States Navy", at the beginning of this wikipedia page about PT Boats, it implies a virtually complete lack of success by USN PTs with torpedoes. Well...I beg to differ! read the facts below and decide for yourself! Jerry

Night of 24 January 1942, PT 41 torpedoed a Japanese transport at Subic Bay.
Night of 1 February 1942, PT 32 torpedoed and damaged IJN minelayer YAEYAMA in Subic Bay.
Night of 8 April 1942, PT 34 and PT 41 torpedoed and damaged IJN light cruiser KUMA in action off Cebu.
Night of December 9, 1942, PT 59 torpedoed and sank IJN submarine I-3 at Kamimbo Bay, Guadalcanal.
Night of December 11, 1942 PT 44 and PT 110 torpedoed and sank IJN destroyer TERUTSUKI off Guadalcanal.
Night of January 10, 1943, PTs 45, 39, 48, 115, 43, 40, 112, 59, 46, and 36 in action off Cape Esperance torpedoed and damaged IJN destroyer HATSUKAZE.
Night of December 24/25, 1942, PT 122 apparently torpedoed and sank IJN submarine I-22 at Tufi, New Guinea, though recent investigations cast doubt on that assessment.
Night of March 3, 1943, in the wake of the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, PT 143 and PT 150 torpedoed and sank the already-damaged IJN transport OIGAWA MARU, 6,493 tons.
Night of May 8/9, 1943, PT 206 torpedoed and sank a German tanker in Ras Idda Bay during the North African campaign.
On July 24, 1943, PT 216 torpedoed and sank the 8,800-ton Italian merchant ship VIMINALE near Palmi.
Night of October 22/23, 1943, PT 212 torpedoed and sank an Italian corvette converted for use as a cargo carrier in the Maddalena-Bastia area.
Night of November 2/3, 1943, PT 211 and PT 207 torpedoed and sank German subchaser 2206 off Giglio Island.
Night of May 23/24, 1944, PT 202 and PT 213 torpedoed and sank German corvette UJ-2223 and torpedoed and damaged German corvette UJ-2222 near Vada Rocks.
Night of June 14/15, 1944, PT 558, PT 552, and PT 559 torpedoed and sank German corvettes TA 26 and TA 30 between La Spezia and Genoa.
Night of November 2, 1944, PT 308 torpedoed and sank German subchaser UJ-2207 off Portofino.
Night of October 24/25, 1944, a PT torpedoed and damaged IJN light cruiser ABUKUMA during the Battle of Surigao Strait.
Night of October 24/25, 1944, PT 323 torpedoed the damaged IJN destroyer ASAGUMO during the Battle of Surigao Strait.
Night of November 28/29, 1944, PT 127 and PT 331 torpedoed and sank IJN subchaser No. 52 and Patrol Boat No. 105 at Ormoc Bay.
Night of December 11/12, 1944, PT 492 torpedoed and sank IJN destroyer UZUKI at Palomplon, Leyte.
Night of December 26, 1944, PT 223 torpedoed and sank damaged IJN destroyer KIYOSHINO off Mindoro.
Night of January 23/24, 1945, PT 532 torpedoed and damaged a 6,000-ton Japanese freighter in Lingayen Gulf; the ship, its bows blown off, was beached and abandoned.

Source: Bulkeley, Robert J., Jr., Captain, USN (Ret.). At Close Quarters: PT Boats in the United States Navy. Washington, D.C.: Naval History Division, 1962. Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.183.121.4 (talk) 15:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
"decide for yourself" indeed. Just off the top, Fitzsimons, w naval ed Antony Preston (Illustrated Encyclopedia of 20th Century Weapons & Warfare {London: Phoebus, 1978}), says Kuma was sunk in January 1944 by HMSub Tally Ho Volume 16, p.1683); Hatsukaze 2/11/43 by U.S. destroyers including Spence (Volume 14, p.1542); & I-22 lost to "marine casualty" (Volume 13, p.1404). Was Bulkeley using wartime credit, or relying on JANAC? As bad as JANAC was, it was better than the wartime accounting, which couldn't (or didn't) weed out mistaken claims from torpedo failures (for instance). Trekphiler (talk) 14:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
The list above does not claim that Kuma or Hatsukaze was sunk, it says "torpedoed and damaged". What is JANAC anyway? Please enlighten me. Thanks Jerry Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.182.124.2 (talk) 12:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
"The list above does not claim that Kuma or Hatsukaze was sunk". Noted. I'd just treat the list with caution, since Bulkeley was a PT sailor & hence had reason to stretch things. JANAC? It's the postwar accounting of Sub Force claims (maybe others, too, which is why I ask), the Joint Army-Navy Assessment Committee. It relied on both U.S. & Japanese records & was notoriously unreliable, denying credit where there were numerous eyewitnesses & photos, giving credit to boats far away from the cited sinkings; also, Japanese records were in chaos by war's end...& at least some U.S. records from early in the war were pretty chaotic, too. Trekphiler (talk) 13:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

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smallwi

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of smallwi  Posted on: Apr 8, 2019 - 6:44pm
Al,

The only summation I have seen was done by Curtis Nelson in his book/thesis titled Hunters in the Shallows. If I recall correctly Mr. Nelson compared information complied, similar to that in the previous post, from Buckley with records of Japanese losses. The results are fairly anemic, which comes as no surprise. Even if PTs had a better torpedo the complete lack of any targeting system, other than a crude metal sight, would have led to similar results.

It is a little astounding when you compare the investment in the TDC for submarine and destroyer use to the metal sight on the PT boats. Torpedo targeting is an extremely complex problem. I am not sure how anyone could have thought the PT boat with a simple sight could have been successful. A bit of a head scratcher.

Bill

Bill Smallshaw

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