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Topic: WHAT WAS THE TRUE COLOR PAINT JOB ON THE 109 |
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David Waples
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Posted on: Nov 26, 2007 - 8:31pm
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Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the information. When I was reviewing the log excerpts from PT-109 on Gene's web site there was a notation that for a week in December they were installing radar on the 109. I'm not sure if it is the unit you're referring to or not. Certainly they were trying to take advantage of this technology and trying to use a system from a PBY isn't at all surprising. I'm trying to imagine what a radar from a PBY would look like on the bow of a PT Boat. What a modeling subject that might be!
Gene's log book does not cover March, 43 so perhaps he'll be able to shed some ight on this. Gene, do you have any information to add?
Thanks everyone
Dave
David Waples |
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Jerry Gilmartin |
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 Posted on: Nov 26, 2007 - 9:35pm
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Hi David,
If you go to Gene Kirkland's PT King website again, under "Articles" there is a section called "Early PT Radar" and it has photos of PT28 up in Dutch Harbor, Alaska with the same type of radar that PT109 had installed on its bow. Those 3 railroad track antennae mounted on PT28's Charthouse were mounted on the PT109 bow according to the transcripts I have by Bud Larsen. I must commend Gene for having posted these fantastic photos. Thanks Gene! OK well there you go.
Jerry
PT658 Portland OR
Jerry Gilmartin |
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David Waples |
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Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 5:22am
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Thanks for pointing that out. I had a completely different vision based on photos of PBY's equipped with radar. No wonder it didn't work, they used the wrong antenna! :-)
So if there is evidence that there was a radar intallation in December and later again in March, are we looking at two different configurations?
Actually this would make a great modeling subject. Drop the rear torpedo tubes and add these three radar antennas on the bow. A very unique 109 model for sure.
Dave
David Waples |
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Drew Cook
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Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 6:21am
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I don't know why it seems to come as such a shock to some folks that the 109, as well as other early 80' Elcos, didn't have their "A"-frame masts up or even on board in the forward combat areas. Although that nifty little mast kind of completed the "look" of the boats, it could also certainly be considered as completely superfluous and unnecessary to the function of the boat in combat. The savings in weight would have been minimal -- the masts and their bracings were probably just "in the way." Their removal would have facilitated better movement around the boat topsides, particularly over the day room canopy.
To me, the period photographic evidence is rather obvious that some of the early 103-class boats in the Solomons, including the 109, didn't have their masts up.
In Donovan's "PT 109" there is a photo of seven PTs in Tulagi Harbor, four 77' Elcos and three 80' Elcos, and not one of the three 80-footers has a mast up. The photo of the 109 running at sea in the same book, a larger version of which was published in Robert Ballard's "Collision With History," clearly shows no mast up on the boat. Gene Kirkland has mentioned the photo of the mast-less PT 116 running at sea on his website, and there are other examples.
While I'm on the subject of Gene Kirkland, let me say that not only does Gene have a great PT website, he is also an excellent researcher and writer (as are others who post on this site, of course). Gene, as he mentioned, is in the process of writing a manuscript on the history of the early PTs at Guadalcanal. I've been privileged to read some of his writing on this, and it is absolutely fascinating. Very, very good stuff, and historically important, too. We PT buffs will eat it up. I hope he finds a publisher, because it will make a great book!
Ted, I hope your deployment goes well, and, like Dave and others, hope you can eventually post those color photos you have of the 61 (and maybe, the 109 alongside). As you and I discussed previously, I realized the 61 was the 77' Elco to port alongside the 109 in those famous "JFK in the cockpit" photos when I saw the photo of the 61 published in Ballard's "Collision With History," obviously taken from the foredeck of the 109 at the same time as the other photos. We'd all love to see those color photos, brother. It just may solve the question of the 109's color once and for all!
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Frank J Andruss Sr
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Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 7:36am
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I think at this point I am getting a Headache about all this talk on PT 109. I have listened for years about PT 109 and her different colors of grey and or green. You guys know that I have a passion for PT Boats, so I know this may come as a surprise when I say this, "MOVE ON TO ANOTHER SUBJECT".
We are beating this subject into the ground. My goodness, would you really be wrong if you made PT 109 in Grey or Green and would anyone outside of this message board know the difference or really care. I understand the importance of trying to be Historically correct when doing a model and the ones I have in my Exhibit are beautiful. Are they the correct color? From what I was told yes. Are they exact to the real ones? Maybe not. It is difficult to match any PT BOAT to what it was 60 years ago, so you guys that keep asking about PT 109's color, PICK ONE, you won't be wrong. I know you guys are going to beat me up on this, and I am not being snotty, but PLEASE, there are other PT Boats that did more for the PT Boat Service then PT 109, how about making them, or getting the colors of another boat that made a difference. I do not mean to be negative. It is not intended to be that way. I am just sick of PT 109. If Kennedy did not become President PT 109 would never have been mentioned. Sorry guys, I can feel the daggers headed my way...........
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Drew Cook
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Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 9:18am
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No sweat, Frank. I hear your frustration and acknowledge it. I'm sure others feel as you do, also.
Obviously, the 109 is the most famous WWII PT boat, regardless of its combat record (or lack of), so obviously, it will be continually discussed - ad infinitum.
I'm sure similar discussions (and frustrations) have taken place among aviation and modeling historians and enthusiasts regarding the exact colors and markings of President Bush's WWII Avenger torpedo bomber, so...
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David Waples
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Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 7:15pm
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Hi Frank and everyone else,
No daggers coming from me and I would hope that they come from nobody on this forum.
Here's my story. My initial interest in PT's came when my dad took me to the movies to see PT-109. From that day forward I was hooked on PT's and the story of the 109 and her crew. You have to admit it's a great story about a great man and a great crew.
My interest in PT's and especially the 109 only grew after I read Donovan's book. Over the years I probably built the Revell kit a couple of times. I watched what others had done and wondered if anyone was getting it right. Then I started collecting books on PT's. My copy of Frank Johnson's book has completely come apart. I can't begin to guess how many times I've been through that thing studying the pictures and reading the text.
I came across a Bluejacket kit of the 103 class Elco and picked that up. About the same time I read Mr. Keresey's book PT-105 and decided that this boat would be the 105. I exchanged a number of letters with Mr. Keresey and I think when done I'm going to have a very special model. This project stalled when it came to decide what color to paint the boat. Mr. Keresey said his boat was "battleship gray". Experts told me it was various shades of green. Then what shade of green? You would think that there would be a color photo out there somewhere that would solve the mystery. So far I've yet to see one and I'm hoping that we're about to see it soon as discussed earlier in this thread. To me it's worth the wait to make sure I get this right, or as right as the body of evidence out there will provide.
I've been posting modeling tips for the 109 for a long time. I had no intention of building this boat but I had written so much about it to help other modelers that I decided to put up or shut up. So I built what I think is a very accurate PT-109 at the time of her sinking. Call me crazy but it's very important for me to as I said, get this right.
Now I have PT-596 on the shelf for a future project. I'm collecting bits and pieces to upgrade her and I'm leaning towards an Atlantic version of this boat just to do something different. In the next week or so I'm hoping to be able to visit with one of the officers from PT-115.
So yes like many others I'm obsessed with the 109. But I'm also very interested in other boats as well and I'm really enjoying uncovering the mystery and sharing what I've learned with other modelers and people who have interest in these wonderful boats.
Dave
PS. I don't know who makes these little happy faces but I would love to see one giving a snappy salute.
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Jerry Gilmartin |
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Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 8:48pm
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Hello message board!
Frank, as usual, I agree with you. I think we should be talking about Higgins Boats mostly, especially since I have a prejudice for these 78 foot PT boats (like PT658) of which no decent off-the-shelf model exists. (After all, they are much faster, maneuverable, and better looking!) I wish somebody would make a model (similar to the Italieri PT596 model) of a 78 foot Higgins! Oh well, I guess I will just have to go down and work some more on restoring the real thing...PT658. We are supposed to take her out of the water in December to do some much needed hull repairs. I feel that everyone is drawn to the PT109 because thats where all the publicity is, (what with a 1st run movie and a US president, no less) and not to mention 90% of all PT boat model kits are of the 109 boat. But you are right, there were many other PT boats in the war that actually were in the thick of things and would make a great subject for a model. Like Bulkleys PT41 or Kelly's PT28? in the Phillipines sinking that Jap cruiser!. Or LCDR Murray Prestons boat, the one he was on in Wasile Bay Halmahera and was awarded the MOH for rescuing a downed pilot. Or how about some of the boats in the Med fighting against the Germans? Like when PT205 liberated a town all by itself? (Bastia I think) Or Hal Nugents PT208? that ran into a German F-Lighter where his binoculars were shot in two and was saved by his boat losing power and drifting in the fog while the Germans shot at each other in the confusion? Or maybe some of the boats in RON13 up in the Aleutians? How about my freind Dick Lowe's boat PT323 in the Phillipines that got cut in two by a Kamikaze on Dec 10, 1944? Or another Kamikaze victim, PT300? How about PT321 shooting all its weapons up under the bow into the bridge of the Jap battleship Kirishima at the battle of Surigao straights? All of these would be great subjects for a good modeler, and not just good ole PT109. So yes, I agree we do focus on PT109 a lot, but it is understandable due to the large amount of publicity that boat has always had. I guess we just need to move on but I am glad you brought it up, Frank. Im not mad Im just expressing my own opinion. Jerry
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David Waples |
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Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 9:24pm
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I'm not sure we'll see anything other than another version of an 80' Elco out of Italeri. They seem to be bogged down on their 1/35 S boat because of production problems.
The best scales for these boats would be either 1/48 or 1/35. In both cases there are enough after market materials to customize. I wouldn't be surprised to see Trumpeter do something like that. They build some interesting subjects that nobody else seems to want to touch. But if we're building a wish list for future kits here's mine....
77' Elco. Wouldn't PT-59 be a great subject. I know it's another JFK boat but what an interesting subject. That boat is bristling with guns.
Higgins. Mid to late war model would be another great subject. PT-313 would be a good choice. It's a nice Atlantic based boat.
Special request. A 1/35 Thunderbolt gun for my 596 kit would be terrific. Either that or a good set of plans so I could scratch build one. Maybe Italeri will put out a PT-559 which sank a German Corvette by torpedo.
I could go on all night. Lots of possible subjects for sure... but please... no Huckins boats. :-)
Don't hold your breath though. I'm not sure the demand is there. White Ensign Models hardly had any takers on their offer to build after market parts for the Italeri kit. It's very expensive to put these big kits out on the market.
Dave
David Waples |
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Drew Cook
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Posted on: Nov 28, 2007 - 1:36am
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Some years ago, I wrote a draft of a letter to Revell in an attempt to convince them to make a 1/72 scale 77' Elco PT 59, with extra parts to customize the boat into a PT 59/60/61 gunboat.
The angle of the pitch was to market it as a two-in-one kit, one that could be built as either a "Guadalcanal Veteran" stock 77-footer or a "JFK's Second Command" gunboat. The kit would be a companion to Revell's venerable old 1/72nd scale PT 109, which has been in existence since 1963.
After finding out how incredibly expensive it was (and is) to develop, manufacture, and market a new plastic model kit, I kind of gave up hope that Revell would ever give my idea any serious consideration, and I never sent the letter.
If any new PT kit were to be put out, my vote would be for a Guadalcanal-era 77' Elco (sorry, 78' Higgins fans - although an accurate 1/72 scale 78' Higgins would be nice).
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