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 Author  Topic: WHAT WAS THE TRUE COLOR PAINT JOB ON THE 109
Dick

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Dick   Send Email To Dick Posted on: Nov 21, 2007 - 1:48pm
David . . . .

Taking a quick look at the boat's armament configuration makes me believe that it's not the 109. The boat only has a forward torpedo tube on the front port side and what appears to be several depth charges or empty depth charge racks aft. Published photos of the 109 being shipped to the Pacific shows the 109 having four torpedo tubes with no depth charges. This is just an observance not a forgone conclusion.

Early photos of the 103, 105, 107, 108 operating in the Panama zone prior to shipment to the Solomons show the boats configured with forward torpedo tubes and aft depth charges and ammo lockers. Photos showing the boats rigged on transport ships heading for the Salomons (like the 109) and photos of the same boats operating in the Salomons, show four torpedo tubes in lieu of depth charges. It appears this group/squadron was reconfigured prior to heading out to the Pacific war zone.

A note of interest: Two of the actual Elco factory drawings show two typical 80 footer profiles, with the 103 labeled boat with aft depth charges while 109 labeled boat drawing with aft torpedo tubes.

Dick . . .



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David Waples

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Waples  Posted on: Nov 21, 2007 - 6:32pm
Greetings Dick,
Thanks for the input. It might be interesting to reach out to the person who posted this web site to see why he believes this is the 109.

The arrangements on these boats are fascinating to me. The crews were very creative with what they had. The 109 is the only one I've seen at the time Kennedy had her that had dept charges. Photos I've seen of the 103 and 107 boat didn't have them and Mr. Keresey wrote me and said he didn't have them on the 105 either.

I'm anxious to see if Ted is able to get back to us with the photo he's referring to. A color photo from Kennedy's squadron would be huge and answer a lot of questions.

Dave

David Waples

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  comcardiv1

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Nov 24, 2007 - 7:09pm
Dear Dick and Dave,

I'm Gene Kirkland, owner of the site in question. To comment on your replies and queries:

I'm currently in the process of researching the PT squadrons that fought at Guadalcanal; some of the fruits of that research I have posted on my website, while others I have filed away for use in a manuscript that I'm writing. As to why I believe the photo in question is of PT 109, I offer in evidence notations from PT 109's log. (I'm not at home at the moment, so most of this is from memory--when I get home, I will consult my files for confirmation.)

At any rate, the first boats of Squadron Two--including the 109--arrived at Tulagi in November 1942. At this time, only two Elco 80-footers arrived with the squadron--the 109 and PT 110. The 110 was rammed by PT 59 during their approach to Tulagi; the damage from this ramming would leave the 110 out of commission until early January 1943. This left PT 109 as the only operable Elco 80-footer in the Guadalcanal-Tulagi area from 25 November 1942 until the arrival of MTB Div 16 (PT's 111-112 of Ron Two and PT's 115, 116, 123, and 124 of Ron Six) on 31 December 1942.

Now, to the PT in the picture. This photo was taken from the crusier USS Pensacola on the morning of 1 December 1942, after the Battle of Tassafaronga. In that battle, the crusier USS Northampton was sunk, while cruisers Pensacola, Minneapolis, and New Orleans were heavily damaged. PT 109's log states that the boat was called out for rescue duty about 1.30 am and had picked up 94 of Northampton's men out of the water that morning. Remember, PT 110 is in dry-dock and out of comission at this time...and the only other force of Elco 80-footers won't arrive until the end of the month.

Re: 109's torpedo tubes. After arrival at Tulagi (again, according to the boat's log) but before the Tassafaronga action, the 109 had her two aft tubes removed. The tubes were not replaced until sometime in March 1943. I have no answer as to why this was done, just the notations in the boat's log. If any one is interested, I will be glad to scan and e-mail passages of the log (which was copied by me at the National Archives a few years ago) to anyone who asks. I mostly copied portions of the log from July 1942 (when 109 was placed in service) to April 1943 when JFK took over. This is my primary source material for the PT 109 article currently on my website.

All the best,
Gene K


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David Waples

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Waples  Posted on: Nov 25, 2007 - 6:30pm
Thanks for the background on the photo. What caught my interest while looking at this photo was that the mast was missing. Looking at the 109's sister ships during this period they all sported their traditional A frame masts that all the early 80 footers had prior to radar installation. It seems clear from all of the 109 photos I've seen that the 109 lost her mast at some point. This photo would indicate that this took place well before Kennedy took command.

I'm interested to see the color photo mentioned earlier. I have a 109 model ready to paint and I'm tempted to hold off until I have a peek.

Standing by patiently.

Dave

David Waples

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  Jerry Gilmartin

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jerry Gilmartin   Send Email To Jerry Gilmartin Posted on: Nov 25, 2007 - 7:34pm
David,
I think the mast is able to be folded down. Maybe rather than being removed it was just folded down in that photo. Pretty simple I know but that is what was most likely the case. Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin

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David Waples

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Waples  Posted on: Nov 25, 2007 - 8:07pm
Hi Jerry,
Yes, these masts could be folded. You can see it in the folded position on the 109 when it was transported to Panama. However once JFK had the 109 it was definately gone. There is one photo of the boat taken broadside and it is clear there is no mast, folded or otherwise. It is not evident in the few other 109 photos taken at this time. I just thought it was interesting that in this new photo there is no mast. Another reason I'm interested to see the color photo.

It was not unusual for these masts to be removed but it is not common to see this in photos. I've only seen one 80' Elco without radar other than the 109 boat and that is in Frank Johnson's book on page 129. If you have this book note the national ensign in the post behind the cockpit instead of on a mast. Every other non radar equiped boat has the mast in the upright position.

Dave

David Waples

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comcardiv1

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Nov 25, 2007 - 9:41pm
To make an educated guess on the subject, it was possible that PT 109, probably PT 110, as well as the boats of MTB Div. 16 mentioned in my earlier reply were stripped of all unnecessary weight upon arrival at Tulagi...and one of the items deemed unecessary was their masts.

There's a photo on my website of PT 116 running at speed off Tulagi, taken in July 1943; this boat also is not sporting a mast. I also have a photo of some of the early Ron Six officers standing around the cockpit of PT 124--and the mast is gone from this boat as well.

Gene K.


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Frank J Andruss Sr

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Frank J Andruss Sr   Send Email To Frank J Andruss Sr Posted on: Nov 25, 2007 - 10:11pm
With Radar in its infancy stages, it is possible that PT 109 had its Mast removd to make way for Radar at some point. I find it hard to believe that it was a weight issue, being as the Mast was made of light weight construction. Maybe the Mast gave way and the boat was set to have it repaired at some point. Unless you speak with someone from the boat, most of what we say here will be guessing.


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  David Waples

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Waples  Posted on: Nov 26, 2007 - 5:13am
Gene & Frank,
Looking at the logbook notes from the Guadalcanal PT's, for PT109 there is a note Dec 18-22 1942 that a radar set was installed. I had read somewhere (can't remember where now) that prior to the behive style radar seen on PT-149 that there was a failed radar experiment with the PT's. It could be that the 109 was one of those boats that had it installed and then removed. There is certainly no sign of radar in any known photo of the 109. But that would be a very good explanation as to why there is no mast on this boat.

Gene, copies of the log book would be great to share with the community. And by the way, thanks for putting all this information together.
Dave


David Waples

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  Jerry Gilmartin

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jerry Gilmartin   Send Email To Jerry Gilmartin Posted on: Nov 26, 2007 - 7:29am
Hi David,
I have posted this before, it is straight out of Gene Kirklands website from Chapter 5 of "The unknown history of the PT109". I also have another manuscript written by Bud Larsen the PT109's CO/XO which confirms that PT109 did indeed have an aircraft radar set taken from a PBY. According to Larsen the Power supply was unreliable and the antennae were mounted up on the bow, and the Tokyo Express passed right in front of them and they never saw anything on their radar. But in both of these accounts it was done in March 1943 not in December 1942. I hope this is useful! Jerry

The following is from Gene Kirklands website "PT KING":

"As it turned out, this would be Larson’s last combat patrol in the Solomons; the Squadron Two boats were pulled out of the Russells in March 1943, shortly after Larson’s moonlight escapade, and were relieved by boats of Squadron Six. Squadron Two returned to Tulagi to have their boats overhauled; the original PT base was now fast becoming a quiet backwater of the war, save for the occasional nuisance raid from Washing Machine Charlie or Louie the Louse. One of these raids, on the night of March 5, “the Louse” dropped four bombs on Sesapi. The first three landed in the water while the fourth hit the PT operations shack, killing one officer and three enlisted men and seriously wounding another officer and another enlisted man. The hull of PT 118 moored nearby was riddled with shrapnel. Some of 109’s days in March were spent in dry dock; her mufflers were changed, and the boat’s bottom was scraped of the green marine growth that accumulated there. Another test involving a radar set was made on March 15, but this one proved to be a bust; the set’s power supply was quite unreliable and was prone to fail at any given moment, and it was removed shortly afterwards. On April 1st XO Sam King was transferred to another boat; replacing him was Leonard J. Thom, a big, blond haired native of Sandusky, Ohio. Described as “a capable and warmhearted giant, who looked like a Viking who had lost his way and sailed into the South Pacific by mistake”, “Lenny” Thom personified the new breed of officer coming into the torpedo-boat corps at that time—former collegiate athletes that possessed the rough, tough, robust physiques to match; and 109’s new exec still looked like the football player he had been before the war when he played left tackle at Ohio State in 1939 and 1940. "


Jerry Gilmartin

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