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 Author  Topic: PT 109 Depth Charge Placement
Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Apr 8, 2018 - 2:48pm
EDITED April 12th, please see my post on page 2.


Finally, I've seen some refer to the foot rails as toe rails. This photo shows it is indeed a foot rail as well as its proper usage:

jQT30.jpg

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David Waples

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Waples  Posted on: Apr 8, 2018 - 6:05pm
Just to add to Jeff's post...

Photo of Ken Prescott's PT-61. He describes being tied up next to the 109. The depth charge location supports that claim.




This photo adds a little more definition to the depth charge. You can see the cables from the rack wrapping around it.



Dave


David Waples

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  alross2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of alross2   Send Email To alross2 Posted on: Apr 9, 2018 - 5:25am
Toe rail or foot rail, that is the question... If I remember correctly, ELCO uses the term foot rail on their plans. In common nautical parlance, however, they are generally referred to as toe rails. Just stirring the pot...


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  alross2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of alross2   Send Email To alross2 Posted on: Apr 9, 2018 - 5:25am
Toe rail or foot rail, that is the question... If I remember correctly, ELCO uses the term foot rail on their plans. In common nautical parlance, however, they are generally referred to as toe rails. Just stirring the pot...


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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Apr 9, 2018 - 6:48am
Thanks David, I forgot about that photo. It looks like it might be a little farther forward than what I came up with? Maybe over the next frame forward assuming they centered the DC's over frames. That would put the mounting flanges of the rack close to the next frames fore and aft. I'll try camera matching the 61 photo and see what it looks like. I also recreated the photo of the crew on the chart house and found that the DC's would not be visible if they were mounted by the cleats.

One detail I found interesting when mocking up the torpedo tubes was that the heights of the fore and aft tubes above the deck, at the mounting points, were all different. I thought the tubes were parallel to the deck and the same height.

You're right Al, Elco titles the drawing as a foot rail. But that doesn't mean it follows the "official" Navy term which is probably a better name. Elco did the same with the "dead light" drawing, I found out the term is properly used for the blackout covering over windows. I think Elco also calls them "deck lights" in some drawings.



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Drew Cook

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Drew Cook  Posted on: Apr 9, 2018 - 11:58am
Jeff,

I've always maintained that the 109's depth charges, when JFK had her, were closer to the forward tubes than just about any model or drawing I've ever seen, evidenced by the photo of the 61 taken from the 109's foredeck.

Although the photo is at somewhat of an oblique angle, the ashcan and the port forward tube are very close, and the depth charge does not look - to me - that far away from the edge of the deck. I personally think they were just aft of the forward cleats..

Dave Waples did a sketch a few years ago on a topsides line drawing of the 109, showing the port forward tube cranked out for firing and the relation of a launched torpedo (using lines drawn from the tube) clearing the two possible positions of the port depth charge.

One position was very close to the fore end of the tube, but set back from the toe rail. The other was farther forward, and at the very edge of the deck. I'd have to say, although I've always thought the charges were at the very edge of the deck, that Dave's first position - closer to the fore end of the tube - is the more probable one, due to the photo of the 61 taken from the 109.


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Dick

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Dick   Send Email To Dick Posted on: Apr 9, 2018 - 4:30pm

Hey Jeff . . .

Ive included some photos that have been posted before, over the years, they might afford some guidance - maybe, or just confuse the issue.

My guess, since there are no facts as to when, where, and method of install, anywhere you place them would be correct!!! However some practical prudence might better help the placement. Kind of like all the outlandish installs of the 37mm, why believe Ensign George 'Barney' Ross description - off subject, but entertains the crap out of me - back to the issue. In other words I guess I would simply crank the tubes out to firing angle then project the torpedo from the tube until it clears the deck, then measure forward from clearing the deck point a foot or two and use that as a good starting point. Kinda like a bad pool shot, missing the eight ball and scratching.

I was surprised to notice on the photos the Cans seems to be back from the edge some difference, much more than the practice on Cans place midship or aft. Where they are clearly on the edge of deck.

Sorry I cant add much real help.
Dick . . . .


jQU9c.jpg

jQ2ut.jpg

jQ0ZT.jpg

jQkI3.jpg





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David Waples

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Waples  Posted on: Apr 9, 2018 - 8:46pm
They stuck a variety of those depth charge racks all over the place. I especially like that one on the 103 boat. It looks like a catapult! My favorite location was on the stern. I still wonder if they were ever used in anger and if they did any good.

I like Jeff's rendering at the top. I think it sits back a little further though. But that's all speculation. Photos can fool you. Here's the drawing I made some time ago but I don't believe this is correct.

jZzaf.jpg

I think it sits farther forward than the aft depth charge in my drawing. Remember the photo shows the torpedo tube in its stowed position. What's that? Did I hear Al say "get over it!" It's a fun exercise.

If I Google "foot rail" I see a bunch of rails at bars or where you rest your foot. If I Google "toe rail" I see a lot of what we're referring to on these boats. But if Elco named it "foot rail" then I guess it's a foot rail.

I need to get back to my taxes.



David Waples

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Stearman

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Stearman  Posted on: Apr 9, 2018 - 9:40pm
Commander Montgomery claimed, that when PT-60 was being chased by a destroyer, he ordered the empty smoke generator overboard fallowed by two depth charges set shallow. He claimed the destroyer Captain immediately came to a full stop. He then saw them poking around for the smoke generator, while the 60 boat made good their escape. Maybe not as intended, but still used!


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alross2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of alross2   Send Email To alross2 Posted on: Apr 10, 2018 - 9:08am
True story - some 35 or so years ago when I did the drawing of 109 that Dave shows above, that's how I arrived at the placement of the depth charge rack. With the tube cranked fully outboard, I estimated the minimum distance the torpedo would need to clear the rails on the rack. I figured the rails would be at or beyond the deck edge, as the charge would hit the deck otherwise. Thus, the placement of the rack.

Al


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