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 Author  Topic: PT boat “dazzle “ camouflage
Lee G

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Lee G  Posted on: Nov 22, 2017 - 12:57pm
Dear Forum, I’m researching the use of “dazzle “ camouflage used I believe on PT 196. Was this strange geometric painting used on other PT boats? And was it effective? I know this pattern of bizarre painting was used on WW1 surface ships to hamper targeting by enemy vessels especially submarines. Also at least one PT I have a photo of has it’s nose painted in a sharks nose pattern like the P 40 flying tigers had on their engine cowls. Are you aware of other PT boats decorating their boats like this? Thanks, PT novice, Lee Greenwood


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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Nov 25, 2017 - 2:28pm
I'm no camo expert but I have a few bits of info. Here are 4 boats in dazzle being shipped out aboard the USS Atascosa, Ted Walther identified them as:
Forward Port PT 167 (beehive radar SCR 517)
Forward Starboard PT 171
Aft Port PT 168
Aft Starboard PT 174

http://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nara-series/19-n/19-N-40000/19-n-43373.html
http://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nara-series/19-n/19-N-40000/19-n-43374.html

PT 196 with the different camo and shark's mouth may have been painted for a press release. This shot shows her with a hull appendage for auxiliary fuel:



There were a number of boats painted with a shark's mouth, both Elco and Higgins.



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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Nov 26, 2017 - 6:07am
Here are some of the photos I have of shark mouthed boats Lee.

Former Elco PT 66 converted to an ASR:

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Elco PT 116:

jjHCa.jpg

Higgins PT 203:

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Higgins PT 203 with a different style mouth:

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Unknown PT:

jj5zo.jpg



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Tracy White

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Dec 28, 2017 - 6:12pm
Quote:
Was this strange geometric painting used on other PT boats? And was it effective?



The photo of PT-196 JeffD posted is non-standard. The PTs on AO-66 is a more standard, but little used design. It was known as the Adaptor design and was used on a few PT boats, a couple of mine sweepers, and the French cruiser Gloire. The cruiser is a good subject to discuss effectiveness. If you watch the linked video, you can see that when the cruiser is farther away, the stripes will blend together and not be discernable. It becomes a question and problem of resolution - detail gets lost as objects move further away and the smaller patterns tended to suffer from this quickly. Since the PTs were smaller craft and had smaller patterns, the design lost effectiveness more quickly. The larger patterns that they faded into might still cause confusion, but at that point the wake a PT generated was going to be more of a give-away anyway.

The adaptor scheme was actually based on a pattern from the first world war, and while there was a design sheet for Sumner class destroyers drawn up for evaluation, it was never applied to US combatants other than PT boats.

Depending on the colors used on PT-196, I would rate that pattern as less effective on the open ocean (it does nothing to break up the outline and the small lines would disappear fast) but perhaps help more if she was hiding on a shoreline. Both would be less effective against a shoreline than the 20L pattern used on late boats such as PT-594.

There is no definitive study on if dazzle schemes were effective in combat more so than solid camouflage. Too many variables and participants who were not interviewed immediately afterwards (Yes, currently deceased submarine captain - do you feel the dazzle camouflage prevented the three torpedoes you fired against the destroyer that sank you were the reason you missed?)

Tracy White
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  TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: Dec 29, 2017 - 3:49pm
Tracy;
You did say it was a non-standard scheme on PT 196, which it certainly was, I think it goes further than that. I don't believe it was intended as a camo scheme at all. I think it was more a ELCO PR stunt/photo-op, or a capitalization on word coming back from the front lines. By May 3 1943, it was no secret that the Japanese referred to the PT Boats as "Green Dragons" or as described in a captured Japanese soldiers diary from Guadalcanal, "the monster that roars, flaps it wings, and shoots torpedoes in all directions". If I remember correctly the paint job is described in the Swasey Painting guide.
ELCO would again refer to this term in the series of lithographs produced in 1944

Here is PT 196 RON 12 at various angles, with ELCO external fuel cell attached. photos taken by Morris Rosenfeld on May 3. 1943 Bayonne, NJ .. In these photos, the boat appears to be painted gray. At this time the boat was known as ELCOPUSS

.jjXFH.jpg

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PT 196 RON 12 photo op for press reporter. LT Alfred Vanderbilt, Skipper of PT 196 with helmet with a star on it. Notice the hammock still tied to the .50 cal depression rail...

jjkx8.jpg

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Writing home in front of "Not quite Sagamore Farm"...LT Alfred Vanderbilt, in front of his tent, Morobe, New Guinea 1944,

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LT Alfred Vanderbilt at the wheel of PT 196 RON 12 Morobe New Guinea 1944.

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PT 196 CREW LTjg Alfred Vanderbilt Skipper and LTjg James Costigan Exec New Guinea 1944.


jj8Fk.jpg
Notice PT 196 in background. PT 191 Officers LT Donald M. Jack Clark LTjg Hendrik Nylond LTjg Nelson J Davis Apr 44 to Apr 45



PT 196 (The Purple Shaft) RON 12 coming alongside USS Wachapregue (AGP-8) OCT-NOV 1944.

jjT3g.jpg

PT 196 RON 12 alongside USS Wachapregue (AGP-8) OCT-NOV 1944, as you can see the sharkmouth. eyes and possibly snout remained, but the wavy lines were deleted.

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Take care,
TED


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