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 Author  Topic: PT 109 Corrections
William Doyle

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of William Doyle  Posted on: Jan 25, 2016 - 8:55am
I am fixing a few mistakes and typos in my PT 109 book for the new paperback version which will be out in June. Does anybody know of something I should fix?
Also, an amazon reviewer reported finding these issues:
ITEM 1: "On page 55 the author claims that the torpedoes had a black powder charge that cause torpedo tube to flare up when launched. Not true. The powder charge was mounted on the outside rear of the torpedo tube and was separate from the torpedo."
ITEM 2: "On page 67 the author errs when stating the balsa life raft that most early 80 footers came outfitted with was removed when the 37mm anti-tank gun was lashed to the forward deck. The fact is that the PT109 never had the life raft on her after she sailed form the Panama Canal zone to the south Pacific. The famous photos of the 109 lashed down to the deck of the Liberty ship SS Joseph Stanton show no lift raft. The one and only Kennedy crew photo of the 109 in Tulagi show no life raft. The author mentions the disappearing lift raft just prior to the chapter on the sinking of the 109."
Does he have a point - should I revise these points?
Thank you to the experts on this forum for all your help!

William Doyle

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Stuart Hurley

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Stuart Hurley  Posted on: Jan 25, 2016 - 9:32am
William,
The port quarter photo of the 109 on the Stanton starboart fwd. show the raft was stowed on the roof of the daycabin. It is just visible. We don't know what happened to it after this. PT 110 photographed opposite to 109 port fwd. also had the raft stowed in the same position at the time.


It is known that the tube cartridge sometimes caused a flash visible at night due to excess oil and gease flaring in the tube. This is mentioned in Dick Keresey's book, PT105.
Why your reviewer would rant about this I am not sure.

Best Regards,
Stu.





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TheBridge

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TheBridge  Posted on: Jan 25, 2016 - 5:20pm
I agree with Stu.

Yes the special black powder shell was outside the torpedo however the sparks from the charge's firing could ( and did) sometimes enter the tube itself causing grease/oil that was used to slide the torpedo into the tubes (and exit the tubes) and (my supposing here) act as a seal to hold in the pressure of the charge as the 'fish' was firing out, would ignite. This was a real problem as it A) warning enemy ships a fish was coming allowing them to alter course and avoid being hit and B) give your own position away. Time hit hit the smoke, open the silencing valves, throttle up and get out of there!

Bridge


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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Jan 26, 2016 - 7:46am
An Elco drawing for PT 115-186 names it a life float and it may have been a Carley Float, not a balsa core but likely copper tube per Al Ross: http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=2960&st=10&nd=20&pg=1&sc=20. A part of the Elco drawing Dick Washichek kindly let me publish and some research links can be found here: http://www.pt103.com/Italeri_PT109_Kit.html#lifefloat. Based on shape, I think these early floats were Carleys and that the later rectangular rafts with a squarish cross-section were balsa.



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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Jan 26, 2016 - 10:31am
What I meant to say in the above is that you might want to refrain from using "balsa" in its description and just call it what Elco did.

Stu also noticed that the 109, and other early boats, had when shipped what looked like a heater on the engine hatch. It turned out to be a rubber boat stowage locker and a bit of it can just be seen in this photo along with the float Stu pointed out: http://www.pt103.com/images/ptpics/Photo_Scan_PT_109_Ferried_Stern.jpg. I've never seen a boat photo from the Pacific that still had them installed. I've no clue as to the reason these were removed.



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TheBridge

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TheBridge  Posted on: Jan 26, 2016 - 11:13am
Jeff,
There is listed of a 'Stewart-Warner' heater unit on deck drawing (item #80) which is suppose to represent PTs 103-196 & 314-367 approved on 10/6/1942

ELCO_Roll_5535-1_72SCAN_00135.pdf & ..00136 deck view drawings.

Found this so far for the unit itself:
ELCO_Roll_5535-4_72SCAN_00329.pdf & ...00330.pdf

Can't tell from the blurry title block of dwg '..330.pdf' which PTs might have had this however on drawing detail ELCO_Roll_5535-4_72SCAN_00339.pdf approved Dec 3 1943 (?) which would be odd considering the call on the 1942 deck layout drawing. Maybe there was a earlier version of the heater drawings but none the less if not a raft box then a heater box...I guess we can choose :-)

Bridge


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Stuart Hurley

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Stuart Hurley  Posted on: Jan 26, 2016 - 12:40pm
Bridge,
The raft box and heater box are very similar. Jeff and I scratched our heads quite a bit over this installation. In photos where it is visible the heater has louvres on the aft end and an exhaust which is visible on the starboard face. Some later versions had a duct into the daycabin wall but early ones duct hot air through the throttle cover, ducting into the higher cover end plate seen ajacent to the daycabin aft wall.

Best Regards,
Stu.





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Drew Cook

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Drew Cook  Posted on: Jan 26, 2016 - 2:00pm
Guys,

Of course, there's another possible explanation regarding the 109's life raft, MIA in the aftermath of the ramming by the Amagiri, or at least not available to the crew...

The raft could have been present before the ramming, laid alongside either side of the foredeck, or, on top of the dayroom canopy, or..? Who knows? ...and lost in the ramming.

Although Donovan, in "PT 109 - John F.Kennedy in World War II" mentions the acquisition of a small dinghy the crew kept hidden under a tarp on the stern (can't remember if it was in the Russells or at Rendova - without checking, I think it was in the Russells) for a while, there is no (I don't think) reference to the boat's issued life raft in the book.

Just because the issued raft isn't mentioned specifically, and wasn't available after the ramming, doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't on the boat on August 1-2 1943, unless someone else can come up with a quote by one of the crew stating unequivocally the "raft had been removed," as I've read in several sources (none by a 109 crewman, though).

We've all kind of accepted that the raft wasn't on the boat on August 1-2 '43, but..maybe it was, and just lost in the ramming? Just something to think about...


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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Jan 26, 2016 - 6:02pm
Ah yes Stu, I remember the ferreting out: http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=3110&st=20&nd=30&pg=36&sc=20. A comparison:



Yes Bridge it's hard to tell without stateside photos which boat had what. The rubber boat locker drawing shows it for PT 103-196 although the 141 clearly has a heater. The 109 as shipped image shows a locker. Check out ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00600.pdf and 00599 (PT 103-196), it's an armament deck arrangement dwg that shows the locker.

No telling Drew, too bad Ken's color shots of the (most likely) 109 don't include a bit more. All I could tell was that at the time of the photos no mast was present either up or down. :D



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TheBridge

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TheBridge  Posted on: Jan 26, 2016 - 6:11pm
You guys are really fun to play with! The combo of photos & blueprints are a lasting treasure for PTs...and us!


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