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Will Day
TOP BOSS
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 Posted on: Jul 9, 2020 - 10:04am
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Thank you, gentlemen. Priceless history.
Will |
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined:
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Dick
Moderator
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Posted on: Aug 13, 2020 - 3:39pm
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The following is from an email chain Jeff D and Ted kindly brought me into. It was a discussion of the salvage of the possible PT 59 from the Harlem River (discussed in previous posts) early July 2020. This is a long post that includes 38 annotated images.
HARLEM RIVER SALVAGE OF POSSIBLE ELCO 77’ PT BOAT
The following photographs used are from, and the property of,
William Doyle , the annotations are mine.
I’am comparing many of Bill’s photos of the actual salvage to elco 77’ engineering drawing in an attempt to identify the boat as a World War II Elco 77’ PT boat. The photos are annotated with my personal comments and/or conclusions. They indicate what I saw when I compared the photos to actual blueprints from Elco.
In the analysis, I conclude that some of the wooden remains brought up from the basin are clearly that of an Elco 77’ PT boat hull. However I cannot discern what PT boat number was assigned or what series of 77’ boats (Series PT20-44 & PT45-68). All the components salvaged are common to both series of Elco 77’ boats. There is however, an item that appears to be the forward hatch. If so, it is a crew quarter’s hatch from a second series Elco 77’ boat as was PT59. Only locating a hull number would it be possible to actually identify the PT boat number.
Stories and tales conclude it was PT 59, but no paper trail evidently exist as to document the actual boat history. There is no proof of sale or ownership change or proof of boat identity other than a Customs Service Number Card. Unfortunately this card contains information not even typical of any Elco 77’ boat. This makes the matter of identification confusing. The Coast Guard has a Citations Card stating the boat burned, was lost and surrender to the City of New York at pier 73 on the East River. This is about a dozen miles south of the current excavation site in the basin on the Harlem River. Pier 73 no longer exists, it was evidently reclaimed for city expansion in the mid sixties.
Since this email was sent out, Bill Doyle has kindly clarified some issue as stated above as to the boats movement and ownership, through his earlier 2017 research.
“Dick,
This is incredible research and detail! Thank you so much for doing this. I will forward this great info. to Battleship Cove.
In the roughest terms, from memory, as I recall the chain of custody when I researched it in 2017:
The boat burned early in the morning of 2/8/66 while docked at old Pier 73 at East 23rd street. (Fun fact, I grew up across the street and my dad parked the family car a few yards from pier.) I spoke to Marinak's widow and she said she got the police/fire call, as Gus was out of town. Much of the boat survived. She said Gus told her he suspected that some kids had an unauthorized nocturnal party on the boat and accidentally set it on fire, or someone torched it for fun.
The remains sat there until 1/20/67 when Gus arranged for it to be surrendered for salvage and it was taken away from Pier 73.
A boat dealer named Jim Yurwitz towed the remains to his place in the Bronx. I believe Yurwitz is alive and on Facebook.
Yurwitz sold the boat to Redmond Burke, the final owner, in a cash deal of a few hundred dollars with no paperwork. Burke (still alive) told me he towed the boat down to its final location, which is where he abandoned it around 1974 to slowly sink straight down into the mud.
At some point someone (Coast Guard? Army Corps of Engineers?) supposedly cleared away the upper remaining pieces as a hazard to navigation, but they didn't bother with the bottom-most pieces, which were visible only at lowest tide until the MTA recovery.
In 2017 when I surveyed and sampled the debris in a small boat, it was a brackish, God-awful, inaccessible place, and the mud was like quicksand, nearly sucked me under.
The mystery continues!
Great detective story.
More to come, I'm sure.
Best,
Bill
William Doyle”
The Following photos and artwork are annotated with my analysis as I compared photos to engineering drawings. You can also download the .PDF file by clicking the link below or continuing viewing this post by scrolling down:
Link
All photographs are the property of William Doyle, please respect that. All comments made on the photos and artwork are my personal comments as to what I saw during my elevation.
Photos: 1 thru 38 . . .
THE END . . . . . .
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Will Day
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Aug 14, 2020 - 9:11am
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WOW!
Will |
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined:
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Jeff D
Moderator
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Posted on: Aug 15, 2020 - 8:18am
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Wow seconded Dick, excellent and very thorough work. And a LOT of work. You've managed to establish that it was indeed a PT boat buried there. With the deck hatch as proof, a later 77 foot Elco. I can't think of anyone else that could have done that with such certainty. 
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Dick
Moderator
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Posted on: Feb 3, 2021 - 1:34pm
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PT 59 . . .
A while back while discussing PT 59 with Roy Forbes, a senior member here at the forum, he said he recalled a possible photo of the 59, that his father had taken in the 1960’s. Recently Roy Forbes replied with the following:
Dick, good news I finally found that photo of possibly PT 59 we were talking about earlier on. It was taken around 1968 give or take a year. While working for in New York with the New York Central RR, my dad (Roy) had heard conversations one day, and said that he had heard it was Kennedy’s old boat. He took me over there and with his old 110 Instamatic he took a photo, but as you can see it is a well faded photos. I’m going to mail you the original and you may do with it what to please.
Cropped Photo:
Original:
Dick . . . .
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TED WALTHER |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Feb 3, 2021 - 6:18pm
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Thanks Dick and Thanks Roy!
There is no mistaking that bow! PT 59 for sure.
It’s the same shape that raised the hair on the back of my neck when I first saw PT 48, back in 1991.
Take care,
TED
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Roy Forbes
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Feb 4, 2021 - 12:25pm
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Thanks guys. Glad you were able to use the photo Dick. I just sat here and had to reread the entire post over again. So much research, work and thought going into this subject and simply so interesting.
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Jerry Gilmartin |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Feb 8, 2021 - 1:03pm
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Its a shame after all this hard work, time, and effort by you guys, all that was left of the PT59 is in too poor of a shape and not nearly enough to restore into a floating working boat. It seems like only a few pieces that are barely recognizable as belonging to a PT Boat, were able to be recovered from their mud encrusted grave. I would have liked to have seen it restored to a floating boat someday, but I think that ship has sailed. Does anyone know what the plans are for these surviving parts which were recovered? I hear they are on display in the Parking Lot at Battleship Cove? If that is true, can we get somebody to go there and photograph them?
Thanks and be well!
Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR |
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Lew Zee
Advanced Member
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Posted on: Feb 8, 2021 - 3:26pm
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Just following with much interest. As a retired test equipment designer I can appreciate all of the hard work including all those detailed drawings. Thanks for keeping us all posted.
Two questions, as it seems that seven foot was cut off of the stern were the original rudders had been retained? Also, was the ex-59 engine configuration changed to two engines?
Lew
Lew Zee |
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Gerry McGovern
Advanced Member
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Posted on: Feb 11, 2021 - 7:46am
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It was common to cut the boats down to meet 65' for USCG passenger boat crewing requirements. When the boats would be cut down, struts and rudders might be saved, but often times replaced because of the change in shaft angle due to the shorter shafts.
It was also common to pull the Packards and install small diesels. In doing so, the vee drives would be done away with and the engines would be moved forward side by side like most other boats of the day.
The ex-PT-486 (Sightseer), while still to this day is a full 80' Elco, she had multiple engine configurations over the years of her passenger vessel service. At one point she had a combination of Superior diesels with GM diesels and the last configuration (to this day) is twin 12V71 diesels. She retains her original struts, shaft logs, shaft seals, rudder posts, steering gear, but the props have been changed numerous times as well as the rudders.
The interesting item for the engine mounts is that the original Packard engine mount rails are still in place on the 486 even though the engines are now located where the center fuel tank would have been.
Former crew member of the Big Blue Sightseer ex-PT 486 |
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