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Michael Engelmann
New Member
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Posted on: Aug 1, 2016 - 9:27pm
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Thanks to David Buck and Ted Walther we now know PT 59's final resting place. There is no way I can let this information just lie here on our internet posts. I can't believe that my posts have been met with snarky responses because I've read every post on this site and no one has been disrespected on this site until my posts. It makes me feel sad that all of our experts and respected author and researchers and REAL Pt Boat Veterans would pooh, pooh my endeavors. Have we as authors and researchers and Vets become so complacent that we will allow this boat to rot? I cannot bear the responsibility of doing nothing. I cannot understand the hatred for JFK among the PT Boat community. In your passive-aggressive way you force me to take action. I will raise this boat with or without your help but let me say I expected much more from the PT Boat community.
You probably don't deserve to know why yet I will tell you... quite simply.
I will do it because it matters....Yes to me personally but to my children and their children...my grandchildren need to know this story and this boat. You established authors who feel so threatened by my posts, you have my sympathy. When the time came you choose to sit on the sidelines and watch. True PT Boaters know where there is a will there is a way. I've recommended this sight to others and I said they are never disrespectful nor dismissive...now I know better.I will raise this boat with or without you.
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David Buck
TOP BOSS
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 Posted on: Aug 1, 2016 - 9:34pm
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Hi Michael, how about a pm my email is listed.
D.buck |
Total Posts: 332 | Joined:
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Jerry Gilmartin |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 12:24am
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Hey Mike,
Sorry if I came across as dismissive or snarky. Not my Intent. I wish you every bit of luck and well wishes. If you go back far enough and read the Forum you will see that the whole mystique of JFK is really blown far out of proportion compared to his involvement with PT Boats. However, when a completely uninformed neophyte off the street is asked about PT Boats, the only thing they may even know is that "That was the boat JFK was on, right?" and that is so maddening to all those OTHER PT Boat vets who also served proudly on PT Boats, that they are all conveniently forgotten and all the things they accomplished don't seem to matter very much to any of the JFK fanboys around. It seems to me that we have already recovered several existing accessible PT Boat Hulls, and we should spend our limited resources on restoring them, before we attempt a new recovery on a boat that may not even exist. I am speaking of PT48, PT305, PT309, PT459, PT617, PT619,PT486, PT657 and a few others I cant recall right now. I personally have devoted over 20 years of my life towards restoring an actual operating WW2 PT Boat, out here in Portland OR, called PT658. So I know a thing or two about the actual work that is involved in restoring these wooden boats to museum quality condition. On our boat, that had never permanently sunk, we had to replace a lot of rotten wood and virtually every fastener that had simply turned into POWDER, all throughout the boat. I cant even imagine how much worse it would be on a boat that has been under brackish water and mud for 50 years from the PT59. When you say that some of us will "allow this boat to rot" I wanted to let you know that the PT59 ALREADY HAS ROTTED far past any recognizable condition, based on my experience with restoring a much younger vessel than PT59. As for the legacy of PT Boats being passed down to future generations, we have given tours to busloads of the general public and to numerous school children, Boy Scouts and Sea Scouts, as well as numerous veterans groups to visit a real PT Boat where they can see and touch, and then hear the growl of those massive Packard engines as they are all started up. I have personally witnessed a PT Boat veteran touch the engines inside the engine room and then start crying, because they were what got him out of danger and back home after a hard battle. Along with the PT Museum in Fall River and the Nimitz Museum in Texas and soon the WW2 Museum in New Orleans, our groups have exposed literally thousands of people over the last 15 years to PT Boats and their story. To be sure, JFK is a big part of that story. In fact we are putting a section dedicated to him inside our museum that we are completing soon here in Portland. I think the best way to continue that PT Boat legacy is to work with the boat hulls that we already have which are also in great need of repair and restoration. As for the task of raising and repairing PT59, there remain great obstacles to overcome in the physical process of recovering and then restoring that boat. This doesn't even address trying to raise any kind of funding to pay for all of this work. Then try getting enough volunteers to help you and that is a whole different problem. Another difficulty arises when the mud is disturbed as the remains are dug up that may release toxic waste into the cove. I imagine there are also regulations that must be met as well as fees and Environmental Impact studies that must be done as required by the EPA or the NY State Dept of Ecology. So that is why I am a tad bit incredulous! Because to me it sounds a little too "pie in the sky" to be feasible. I suggest that you may want to approach the US Navy Museum or the Naval History and Heritage Command in Washington DC to see if they could help out like they are helping with the recovery of the USS Monitor civil war wreck off the coast of North Carolina, or the USS Constitution in Boston. Maybe they could recommend some resources that you could use. But all in all, I am not against you or your efforts. Again I apologize for the snark. Good luck in your momentous endeavor! Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR |
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined:
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Jeff D
Moderator
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Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 5:15am
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Thanks to David Buck and Ted Walther we now know PT 59's final resting place. There is no way I can let this information just lie here on our internet posts. I can't believe that my posts have been met with snarky responses because I've read every post on this site and no one has been disrespected on this site until my posts. It makes me feel sad that all of our experts and respected author and researchers and REAL Pt Boat Veterans would pooh, pooh my endeavors. Have we as authors and researchers and Vets become so complacent that we will allow this boat to rot? I cannot bear the responsibility of doing nothing. I cannot understand the hatred for JFK among the PT Boat community. In your passive-aggressive way you force me to take action. I will raise this boat with or without your help but let me say I expected much more from the PT Boat community.
You probably don't deserve to know why yet I will tell you... quite simply.
What endeavors? Insulting every member of this board? Jumping on a soapbox with vague ideas? Except for a very specific dollar amount, $25. Let's do the math. To raise 2.5 million that would take 100,000 members.
How about rather than getting all butt hurt, you outlay a plan to raise her rather than alienate everyone here that love all things PT. Like how you are going to get permission to disturb toxic sludge so you can prove without doubt that it is indeed PT 59.
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TED WALTHER |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 6:52am
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Jerry;
I agree with all. FYI, The Kennedy family has known about this PT 59 and its location for years, and they have done nothing. The Navy Museum has known where the remains of this boat is, that I know of, since 1996. When I told them.
But PT 48 was in danger of being confiscated and destroyed by the State of Virginia. So I contacted Kim Nielsen, then a curator at the Navy Museum. They sent a team of Carpentry experts and a marine surveyor from the USS Constitution to Claytor Lake. Virginia , just to perform a marine survey on PT 48, They were all thrilled at the condition she was in. This is why they were so interested in obtaining PT 48, I sent a whole proposal to the curator(including a set of 1941 blueprints for a cradle). The Vice CNO was extremely interested in PT 48, but then the leadership changed before a move or deal could be made, Howard kept waffling on the price. Then he moved the boat to Fruitland, Florida. Before long we were involved in the war against terror and the funding for new projects at the Navy Museum, went where it was need more, the war.
Now as you mentioned in your post, there are several other considerations since the remains, if still there, are in the NYC area. As a born New Yorker (Long Island), I know a something about this area,
First and foremost, the Harlem River has been a toxic cesspool ALWAYS! Hell I have been a certified diver since 1993 and I don't even want to go in there in a drysuit!!! Only in the last 15 years has things started to change. I am sure the EPA will have a team sitting on the pier observing everything.
Second, permission has to be obtained to dive there, probably from the city and the state. I don't think it is permitted to "recreationally" dive within city limits. Since it is "moored/sunk" to MTA property, permission must be obtained by the property owner, since the security fence is so close to the actual site, it must be cut and moved to allow access. When permission is granted by all entities, Then permits will be needed for dredging, diving, and setting up a construction/removal site. That's if you decide to use the land side. If you choose to use the Harlem River, then you have to hire a barge and crew, crane and dredge crews, permits for all, USCG and NYPD water division must be notified, and consulted.
Now with all this, can we get somebody to go down there at low tide with a piece of pipe and poke around the water to see if there is something still there, before we start firing broadsides??? I will work one of my USCG contacts, because (I was told) as of 2004 USCG and NYPD Marine declared it destroyed, we have to find out what their actual definition is.
Take care,
TED
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Lew Zee
Advanced Member
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Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 9:30am
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With the good intentions of the members of the PT Boat forum, with members from all over, deep criticism is not deserved. I supposed many members are like me, retired (or near retirement) living comfortably but not rich with funds enough to put into this project.
Does anyone have any idea of the probability that this is the 59? If I were to hazard a guess I would think 85% is a good number. Has anyone taken a small boat out there during a very low tide and leaned over the side and taken any dimensions? Perhaps a few numbers such as bulkhead/frame spacing as well as a few numbers across the front/mid section to create a gunwale curve (as the stern was trimmed quite a bit). That might be the confirmation needed.
Lastly, Michael has some good intentions. Perhaps he can get a piece of the keel, even if it is only a few feet long. Then it could be said that every reasonable effort has been made to identify without a doubt that this is, without doubt the historic PT-59 Boat.
Beyond that, RIP PT-59.
Lew
Lew Zee |
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Will Day
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 10:51am
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Nice to see some reasoned responses to a rather bombastic tirade. Good work, gentlemen!
Will |
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Jimbo Melanson
New Member
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Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 11:26am
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He slammed me on my little PT Boat page on FB not long ago I had no idea of who he is. No insult ever thrown but I guess I did. He is quick with being offended and his critique. I to have done my time trying to preserve and research and put up $$$ to boot.
I am sure he does not know of my invite some 12 years ago too go look at the 59 whilst trying to get the 761 straightened out but I am not offended..........much like I did not know he wrote a book about PT Boats. Does he know I have a couple records out with my band? No?? Da Noive!
At the end of the day if there is anything left of her lying there potentially under the silt then go for it!!! Mr Buck and Ted have done a great job dedicating time to this topic of a great important piece of our history.
Too many here to show respect for don't let one sour apple get in the way.
Jimbo |
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Jimbo Melanson
New Member
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Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 11:26am
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He slammed me on my little PT Boat page on FB not long ago I had no idea of who he is. No insult ever thrown but I guess I did. He is quick with being offended and his critique. I to have done my time trying to preserve and research and put up $$$ to boot.
I am sure he does not know of my invite some 12 years ago too go look at the 59 whilst trying to get the 761 straightened out but I am not offended..........much like I did not know he wrote a book about PT Boats. Does he know I have a couple records out with my band? No?? Da Noive!
At the end of the day if there is anything left of her lying there potentially under the silt then go for it!!! Mr Buck and Ted have done a great job dedicating time to this topic of a great important piece of our history.
Too many here to show respect for don't let one sour apple get in the way.
Jimbo |
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David Buck
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 5:04pm
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Hmm ,well when I started this post I was only interested in the 59 boat because the asking price for the 48 boat was $500,00.00, and I was thinking that the 59 boat whatever was left of her might be a better option as both would have to start from scratch as far as restoration is concerned.
However the one big thing no matter which boat/s are concerned is cost and has been pointed out we still don't have any sort of fighting fund to follow through with ANY restoration or any thing to do with our concerns re the boats SO,
How about a little idea like this if they are willing, maybe Frank and Ted and anyone close to them Will, Jeff, who ever, get together form a non profit org, start a bank account in the org name and those that are really interested start to put say $10.00 a fortnight into it, I know this does not sound like much but I spend more than that on plumbing fittings when I go to my local hardware store and as for when the wife wants to go shopping well I think we all know what happens then.
JUST THINHK WHAT WE WOULD HAVE IF WE HAD STARTED THIS AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS POST!!!
Nothing will happen without funds we can talk for years but that's all that will happen come on guys what do you say want to really make something happen remember "A journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step" lets take that first step then WE as a group can see what we are interested in take off.
D.buck |
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