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 Author  Topic: Size of Union Jack flag
Tom K

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: May 3, 2015 - 8:22am
Hi,

Does anyone here know the measurements of the 48 star Union Jack flag that was occasionally flown at the bow of PT-boats while in port?

Many thanks for any potential clues.

Tom

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  TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: May 3, 2015 - 10:27am
Tom;
If your doing a 1/35 model look for True Details US Flags and Jacks.
These are very good. In real life 20" x 24" sounds correct(22.5x32in was used on WWll US Submarines),
Take care,
TED


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Tom K

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: May 3, 2015 - 12:55pm
Great, thank you for your help Ted.

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  Jerry Gilmartin

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jerry Gilmartin   Send Email To Jerry Gilmartin Posted on: May 3, 2015 - 2:29pm
Hi Tom
I looked in the modern day manual
NAVAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS PROCEDURES
FLAGS, PENNANTS & CUSTOMS
NTP 13 (B) from the NAVAL COMPUTER AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMAND

Seen in Chapter 5, section 505

505. SIZE OF NATIONAL ENSIGN AND UNION JACK FOR SHIPBOARD USE
a. The table shown below is used to determine the appropriate size national
ensign and union jack used aboard ship. The union jack displayed from the
jackstaff shall be the same size as the union portion of the national ensign
displayed from the flagstaff (see note 1):
NOTE 1 - Size 10 jacks are NOT manufactured so ships should substitute
a size 8 jack, or use the field of a size 10 ensign

The table shows that for vessels less than 100ft in length, the "Daily" Flag Ensign should be a Size 10 (2ft 4-7/16 in x 4ft 6 inches) and the Jack should be the same size (per Note 1.)

Also from the Naval History and Heritage Command the Flag Sizes are listed below.

Flag Size Number Hoist Length (in feet) x Fly Length (in feet)

1 20.00 x 38.00

2 19.00 x 36.10

3 14.35 x 27.27

4 12.19 x 23.16

5 10.00 x 19.00

6 8.94 x 16.99

7 5.14 x 9.77

8 5.00 x 9.50

9 3.52 x 6.69

10 2.90 x 5.51

11 2.37 x 4.50

12 1.31 x 2.49

However, this all may be dependant upon whether you classify the PT Boat as a Boat or as a Ship, Since Boats are not supposed to fly the Union Jack at all, per Section 504 Part b.

Section 504. DISPLAY OF THE NATIONAL ENSIGN AND UNION JACK IN BOATS
a. The national ensign shall be displayed in boats of the Naval service
as follows:
(1) When underway during daylight hours in a foreign ports
(2) When ships are dressed or full-dressed.
(3) When going alongside a foreign ship (day or night).
(4) When an officer or official is embarked on an official occasion.
(5) When a flag officer, a unit commander, a commanding officer, a chief
of staff, or a chief staff officer, in uniform, is embarked in a boat of his
command or one assigned for his personal use.

b. The only occasion in which a union jack is flown in a boat is when it
is being used as a personal flag (see Chapter 10). The union jack is never used
as a personal flag aboard ship. (In other words Boats should not normally be flying the Union Jack!)




Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

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Michael Vorrasi

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Michael Vorrasi  Posted on: May 4, 2015 - 12:24pm
Hi Jerry,

I did some research a while back concerning PT's and if they were small boats (not commissioned) or commissioned warships. The Navy considered them commissioned vessels, provided they were part of a commissioned squadron. This was mainly to ease administration, as the squadron served as the commissioned entity. All PT's attached to the commissioned squadron were thus its commissioned warships and adhered to a commissioned warship's flag etiquette. That means in port, they were to display the jack on the bow and the national ensign on the stern, At the moment of getting underway, they were to lower the jack and stern ensign at the same time as hoisting the national ensign from mainmast. This act was, and is still, called "shifting colors."

If you ever noticed, in "They Were Expendable", as the PT gets underway, you will see, at the exact moment the boat casts off, the crew "shifts colors" removing the jack and the stern national ensign while simultaneously hoisting the battle flag on the main mast. This "shifting colors" is the unmistakeable mark of a commissioned warship getting underway for battle, and no other than a commissioned warship is to do this. (A point of honor reserved only for warships.) This is per old naval etiquette going back to the age of fighting sail, and was followed by the US Navy. PT's were, in fact, the smallest commissioned warships of WW2.

A commission PT carries the prefix USS as in "USS PT-20". A small boat is never referred to as USS anything. United States Ship denotes commissioned warship status. This is partly why reclassification of an old war weary PT as a Small Boat meant the PT was sort of moved off the grid as it were. It was then no longer part of a commissioned MTB squadron and thus no longer a commissioned warship.

Mike

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  Jerry Gilmartin

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jerry Gilmartin   Send Email To Jerry Gilmartin Posted on: May 4, 2015 - 1:11pm
Thanks Michael,
I agree with you 100%. I have seen "They were expendable" many times, and have taken note of exactly how they are doing the shift colors routine so we can emulate it on board the PT658 when we are moored, just like we did on my 13000 ton Cruiser when I was on active duty. The only thing is that I have been "corrected" by some people over the years when I refer to the PT658 as "USS PT658". They said it was improper to refer to a PT Boat as USS since it was part of a larger commissioned unit, and that each individual boat was not the thing which was commissioned. I choose to ignore them and refer to all PT Boats as "USS". Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
Jerry


Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

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Michael Vorrasi

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Michael Vorrasi  Posted on: May 4, 2015 - 4:09pm
Jerry, if anybody takes issue, just show them a photo of any PT Builder's Plate. Every one says USS in front of the PT number. Also, any official USN photo has the number preceded by USS. They were commissioned by virtue of the squadron commission they belonged to. Look over any of the wartime logs we have access to right here. All refer to the boat as USS PT-157 etc. Also, a PT skipper, when operating independently, had all the powers under Admiralty law that a captain of any commissioned ship is accorded. If memory serves, At Close Quarters touched on this, and possibly a few other books rattling around in my head!

Mike

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Tom K

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: May 4, 2015 - 4:59pm
Jerry, thanks for the detailed information. Very helpful.


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  Jerry Gilmartin

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jerry Gilmartin   Send Email To Jerry Gilmartin Posted on: May 4, 2015 - 5:12pm
Thanks Tom and Michael,
Here is the Jack donated to us with our old President, Harry Weidmaier by Harry Doem ex SM2/c from the USS Barnett APA11, a veteran of the Landings at Guadalcanal, Normandy and Okinawa during WW2 and is our authentic Navy Jack Flag. It is 100% cotton and is a beautiful flag, with individually sewn on stars etc. You can glean the size from tje photo, but I have no idea if it is actually the correct size.



Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Total Posts: 1216 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm | IP Logged


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