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Topic: Early Elco 80'--Which Boat to Build? |
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zeusbheld
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Posted on: Oct 21, 2014 - 1:52am
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Equal parts beer and split pea soup I'd say. Looks like a scene from "The Exorcist"...
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Those aren't exactly the most durable pigments in the world. When they fade they'll look like a faded yellow highlighter... and smell bad for a week or two.
Speaking of colors here's something that may be of interest for modelers and other excruciatingly anal retentive types: I have found one source that describes the formula of Copperoyd. There are a lot of ways to make copper-based anti fouling paint but according to this passage from Hell on Keels
"Painting the hulls took between three and four hours. The coating was pure copper in a lacquer solution."
I find this interesting for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, given that it takes three to four hours, the hulls could be repainted fairly often. This would make a difference for a fast boat, as barnacles and other critters would slow the boat down. Thus I think it's fair to assume that the boats at bigger bases were generally well maintained. Photos I've seen seem to support the notion that PT models shouldn't be weathered as heavily as, say, submarines (let alone rustbuckets like Flower-class corvettes).
That said, most of what I've read implies that early war boats (Philippines, Guadalcanal) were pretty beat up, and supplies were few and far between.
From this I'd conclude that boats from Fall 1943 onward were in pretty good shape, and models should have minimal weathering. Boats at Guadalcanal could be weathered heavily. However, anyone who knows better feel free to correct that assumption!
I've got a lot of reading to do. I bought a lot of books lately, including a couple by people who post here:
Hell on Keels, by Rick Desloge (obviously)
PT 109, by Robert Donovan,
PT-105, by Dick Keresey
Into the Dark Water, by John Domagalski,
They Were Expendable, by William White,
At Close Quarters, by Robert Bulkley,
Building the PT Boats, and PT Boats Behind the Scenes, by Frank Andruss,
US Patrol Torpedo Boats in World War II, by T. Garth Connelly,
American PT Boats in World War II, by Victor Chun,
Allied Coastal Forces vol II, by John Lambert and Al Ross,
Osprey New Vanguard 148,
Squadron Signal in Action 4007 and 4034,
US Small Combatants, by Norman Friedman,
and one more, which I really hated:
Epic Voyage, by Michael Englemann. What really put me off wasn't the lack of depth to the research or the convoluted narrative, it was the hatchet job he did on David Levy. I get the impression that he read Levy's book and developed an irrational, strong dislike for Levy.
I'll be getting a few more, when I can including
Fast Boats and Fast Times, by David Levy,
A PT Skipper in the South Pacific, by Ken Prescott,'
First Up, by Bridgeman Carney,
Long Were the Nights, by Hugh Cave,
Sea Wolf, by William Breuer,
An Honorable Profession, by Bruce Bachman,
Tales of Tulagi, by John Searles,
United States PT Boats in Action, by Frank Johnson,
United States Mosquito Fleet, by Bob Ferrell,
Sea Hawks, by Edgar Hoagland,
Devil Boats, by William Breuer,
Let me know if I missed anything essential on my shopping list (or if there's anything I'm better off skipping).
My plan is to read the narratives first, decide what boats to build, and then read the technical descriptions/photo books.
I've still not decided what boat to build first, but it's clear that I'll have to build quite a few PTs. I'll build this first RC one and a 77 footer in 1/72, then decide whether to build a bigger boat next or more 1/72 boats...
but none of that will happen until I wade through my reading list.
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Will Day
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 Posted on: Oct 21, 2014 - 3:47pm
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@ Zeus: Give us your email and I'll send you a copy of my book/vid list.
Will |
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TED WALTHER |
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Posted on: Oct 21, 2014 - 5:55pm
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Zeus;
Quite a nice selection of PT reading. I agree with your synopsis of Epic Voyage,I have already found inaccuracies in what I read off the amazon site. The most obvious is the title of the book :Epic Voyage: The Greatest PT Boat Story Never Told: PT 59 and her two Skippers. great title, but why does he go on to write of PT 59's 3 Skippers??? Actually, Charles Mills, David Levy, Jack Searles, JFK and Joe Atkinson, were ALL Skippers of PT 59, what happened to writing about the other two? I guess they were not interesting enough, Is this the new trend in historical writing: " Its so long ago nobody cares".? The book also mentions Mark Wertz was in the Philippines with Bulkeley's RON . Wertz was never assigned to Bulkeley's RON 3 in the Philippines, he was in RON 2(pre-war Exec on PT 14), RON 1(PT 28 at Pearl Harbor), RON 2 (PT 37 and 47), then Exec and CO of MTBTRU.
Dave Levy, chose to relate his own insecurities at the time in his autobiography, it help makes his story more realistic and easier for the reader to relate, he didn't have to, that was his decision , His feelings were the same as every other guy his age and in his position in the Squadron. There were several guys who were in the group who didn't cut it, and they were off the boats.. He was at Torpedo school at Newport first, and they asked for volunteers, In addition to torpedo systems which he was already learning, he was Syracuse 41 and a member of the football team and ski team...an athlete. However, part of the selection process of Melville, was to seek the best. You were not just Joe Schmucatelli , and said you wanted to be in PT's, even though you volunteered you were recruited by experienced PT officers and were selected. Another thing mentioned, was that the author felt Levy never heard Bulkeley's statement "Every PT mission is a suicide mission" Bilge! Everyone heard everything Bulkeley and Kelly had to say, good and bad, they WERE the poster boys for PT Boat recruiting and they both made numerous recruiting trips to Ivy League and big sports universities and colleges. So did George Cox and Hank Brantingham, there was nothing to hide in this program, it was all right up front. They told you exactly how it was.
Yes Dave Levy was not a "member of the club", but he was selected, so they saw what they were looking for or he would not have been there. He had the right stuff, and proved it time and time again, not only in RON 3(2) but later in RON 23, where he ended the war as RON 23 Executive Officer, achieving the rank of LCDR.
The author is accurate in stating "maybe the Ivy Leaguers knew each other previously" many of them did, Why do you think they formed the Tulagi Yacht Club and the Princeton Club of Tulagi? Some the officers at Tulagi knew each other since they were young teenagers, but others didn't. Many Officers at Tulagi were in PT's from the beginning and were in the 3 Pre-War squadrons, such as Wertz, the Searles Brothers, Westholm, Taylor, Montgomery, Clagett, etc.
As a new member of a team, you shut up, observe, and learn. You find your own way to fit in, so you focus on your strengths to overcome personal insecurities, tactical experience or any other shortfalls . This is exactly what he did, and he was damn good at it and proud of it. He later used these same acquired skills in his Law practice and his successful entrepreneur business dealings and he was extremely successful as were most of the original Tulagi gang. Levy was also one of the proud gentlemen standing there in New Orleans at the last Peter Tare reunion.
Also he mentions a "ghost writer". Gerald Meehl, is definitely not a ghost writer, he is an accomplished World War ll historian and author of several books, and who actually has been to every major Pacific battlefield and photographed all of them(get his books, "Pacific Legacy: Image and Memory from World War ll in the Pacific and Pacific War Stories: In the Words of Those Who Survived") his photography is wonderful. If that was not enough, he is a noted scientist who is senior scientist at the National Atmospheric Research Center. He also a 2007 Nobel Prize Laureate for climate change studies, which also happened to be an of Dave Levy, since he was an avid outdoorsman, Skier, and environmentalist, who has fished the world over. Dave Levy picked Gerald Meehl, because he new him, originally from Aspen, Colorado. Where Levy had his second "vacation" home for 50+ years. Dave is also quoted in Mr. Meehl's other books.
Another thing most people don't know, most of the photos taken at Tulagi, were taken by Dave "Hogan" Levy.
Take care,
TED
P.S. someone posted a spot on review for this book on Amazon already.
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zeusbheld
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Posted on: Oct 23, 2014 - 5:51am
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@ Zeus: Give us your email and I'll send you a copy of my book/vid list.
Will
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There; I finally figured out what "make email visible in posts" means. Please do send a copy of your list! (and anyone else is welcome to do the same).
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zeusbheld
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Posted on: Oct 23, 2014 - 5:56am
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Ted,
I'm now looking forward to getting Mr. Levy's book. The more I learn about this guy the more interesting he gets. I think my first 77' Elco's going to be the '59, around the time when Levy and Searles took turns taking her out.
Got to get going on this boat first though. To do that, I need to choose a boat... and to do THAT, I need to do more reading...
PS I definitely need to get Pacific Legacy. Being located in Southeast Asia means the flights to some of these sites are more reasonable. I gave up scuba diving a few years ago due to having badly injured my sinuses (I had a cold and wasn't aware of it, and went diving anyway). I think it's worth trying to get back into it. Most wrecks are in deep water but I'm sure there's plenty to see...
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Drew Cook
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Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 12:01pm
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I've got Dave Levy's book, and I think he was honest in his thoughts and feelings, too.
You sure wouldn't have to have been Jewish to feel somewhat left out of a group of Ivy League, main-line WASP guys like a lot of the PT officers, if you weren't one yourself.
I remember transferring to a private, all-boys grade school populated by a lot of "rich" kids -- their houses, and those of their relatives, looked a lot like the "Stately Wayne Manor" in the old "Batman" TV show, and those kids were, well...different. More than a few of them were arrogant and superior-acting. Not like the regular suburban kids I'd known and lived around.
Remember Ernest Hemingway's cynical retort to F. Scott Fitgerald's breathless exclamation about these people ("The rich are very different from you and I!"). "Yeah," Ernie said. "They have more money."
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29navy
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Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 3:22pm
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Don't forget: MTBSTC - Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron Training Center by Charles B. Jones
For your book collection.
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TED WALTHER |
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Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 3:34pm
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Drew;
Well said.
Take care,
TED
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zeusbheld
Advanced Member
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Posted on: Nov 8, 2014 - 6:46pm
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Beautiful stuff for the reading list guys, thanks! I'm glad I figured the email thingy out (duh). I'm reading Keresey, Donovan and Bulkley now; It's been well worth it and led to not only suggestions but even opportunities to buy some of the books i covet.
I started reading "Into the Dark Water" but a couple of things put me off: Firstly, I read somewhere that PT does *not* mean "Patrol Torpedo" as Donovan claims. It is just a hull number sort of the way Flower-class corvettes were numbered K-### by the Royal Navy. Please if you know one way or the other set me straight on this.
My main problem, though, is this... As someone from 'upstate' (not far from where Levy went to school) who lived in The City for 13 years, I saw a mention of Kill Van Kull, a strait that separates New Jersey from STANTON Island... STANTON ISLAND?!? Mr. Domagalski lost the trust of this New Yorker on that one. I bet most people from all over have heard of STATEN Island. I'm sure after I cry myself to sleep a few times I'll get over this disappointment... However, if anything in Domagalski conflicts with Donovan, I'd bet on Donovan...
As for why I started this thread right now I've almost decided that my first PT is Keresey's 105, even though I haven't gotten as far in the book as him even getting to Melville yet. Here's why:
Keresey hails from Montclair. I dated a girl from there for quite a while (she was a nut job but I like that town a lot anyway). Keresey went to Columbia law school. I went to grad school there (although, nothing near so rigorous as law school). So, I feel like I 'get' him.
The thing that sealed the deal though was this passage. Now, Keresey was hot stuff. An achiever. if he were my peer I'd be more intimidated than Levy apparently admitted he was when he was surrounded by these guys.
But here's how Keresey describes his first meeting with David Payne, one of these Ivy League types who have been selected for PTs:
"He was from Yale. This background had left a patina of reserve, refinement and arrogance---shared only by those from Harvard.
"I, on the other hand, was a product of parochial and public schools, the seven years of education at Dartmouth, L'Ecole Libre des Sciences Politiques, and Columbia Law School and had produced only a thin veneer of refinement, no reserve to speak of, and had merely abetted an arrogance inherited from my Irish forebears off the Hoboken docks."
That passage impressed me. Here's a man so far beyond me who has felt stuff I have. I haven't read Levy yet (book's on its way soon!) but it also made me appreciate Levy more for his candor (not to mention his achievements). I will also have to build a PT-59.
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TED WALTHER |
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Posted on: Nov 9, 2014 - 9:19am
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Zeus:
Good for you!! Speaking as a guy who grew up on Long Island, I know exactly where you’re coming from.
When I was a kid, my Grandmother's sister, Zia Amelia, lived on Staten Island. Even though I realize it’s just a typo, The only "Stanton Island" that I know of is on my son's Grand Theft Auto III video game!:0)
Years ago, I wrote and received letters from CAPT. Robert R. Green USN (Ret), PTC RON 1(PTC-5), RON 2, liaison to RN for 70’ ELCO lend lease turnover, ELCO SHIPSUP, MTBTC, who went on his last patrol several years ago. Anyway, when he was ELCO SHIPSUP, he performed ALL acceptance trials for every ELCO 77' boat. If you don't know about this, part of the acceptance requirements is: X number of hours at various speeds(20 hours at 20 knots, 20 at 30 knots, 20 at 40 knots etc. This is just example, the actual is probably in one of the manuals on Jeff's PT103.com site)for an assigned total number of hours. In one of his extremely detailed letters he described taking the boats on acceptance runs in a "race track' fashion Newark Bay, Kill Van Kull, Ellis Island, Statue of Liberty(Liberty Island), then turn to port and head up the Hudson to Fort Lee. When he was required to, he would turn at Liberty Island and head between Governors Island and Battery Park, head up through Hells Gate and out into Long Island Sound to run distance speed runs, or go to Fife's in Glen Head or Melville. Some open water runs he performed were to Sandy Hook and back. He wrote he did most of his long runs on Long Island Sound because one of the acceptance requirements for each boat were several four hour runs at 40 knots over a measured course/distance. I can just picture him passing Stepping Stones and the Execution Rocks and opening that boat up wide open!
Two things that always had me identify with PT BOAT guys is that so many of them were from the tri-state area(speaking like a true New Yorker!;0) and I also grew up on the water, fishing on both Great South Bay and Long Island Sound. I could read about so many, and then just picture in my mind where they lived and were from, (just as an example: Henry Stillwell “Stilly” Taylor, (a Tulagi original) lived right down the street from my Uncle Joe (RADM Joseph J. Peck, USNR(RET) in Oyster Bay and more than likely enjoyed several cocktail parties, Uncle Joe always had. At 1600 on the dot, the green Martini cocktail pennant would be run up the yardarm! He and my Dad had two made at Whitestone, while on Naval Reserve duty, I still have Dad’s. I have been in Vanderbilt’s Neighborhood, and his stable areas at Belmont. I had an Aunt who lived in Leonia, NJ(were the Searles Brothers were from), My Uncle George lived near Fife’s in Glen Head, and my cousin Paul(now 70+) still runs his own boatyard in Amityville, which his Dad started in the early 1940’s out of his house! All these identifying factors and more, helped make these guys MORE real to me, they were not just names in a book, they were people who I either knew, or knew where they lived. Their history became so real to me I followed into their footsteps in the Navy as a NSW SWCC for 12 years, I have been so lucky as I have been in all these areas, taken my boat from Virginia to NYC, through Hells Gate and up to Newport and Melville (yes I had my DET make a special little “detour” to Melville before we left heading home). Later that year we even hosted RON 12 officers and men (led by Bill Costello and Sam Goddess) at our unit and took them ALL for rides on our MKVSOC, and they gave us copies of their 1943 RON 12 commissioning program from the New York City Yacht Club.
Yes helping modelers on this board is one thing we do here, but really it is guys like you, who we need more of here, guys who come here looking for assistance, but decide to immerse themselves so much into this rich history, that identifying factors are triggered and it becomes real to them. And to paraphrase you: “They get it”.
Take care,
TED
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