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 Author  Topic: First Blood Pearl Harbor
David Buck

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Buck   Send Email To David Buck Posted on: Sep 2, 2013 - 6:06am
Tracy,

A little info I put together that may help,

Rear Admiral John F. Shafroth, Jr. was the COI during the 1944 event he wrote a number of letters that Rear Admirals tend to do some of them cover 1944.

These letters and other paperwork are held at the Herbert Hoover Library, as you spend a little time at various archives you may be able to obtain the letters that cover that period of time easer than I can.

Hope this helps.

D.buck

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Roy Forbes

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Roy Forbes  Posted on: Sep 2, 2013 - 9:55am
OK, now my head hurts. Super Secret privately funded multi-million dollar expeditions to locate and then recover a relic, possibly deadly, when one was already in hand on 8 Dec 1941. Only to be dumped back overboard...hum. Or how about a Military Black Project to locate and recover an item, one of which was already in hand graciously delivered by the early morning waves. I think there was more pressing issues in the days following the 7 Dec attack. And if you are think about a multi-million dollar private undertaking of that magnitude sometime after the war. Once again I ask to what end? Oh, then lets throw it back into the water. Wow.

So lets see, Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor from William of Ockham) is a principle used in logic and problem-solving. It states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

The application of this principle often shifts the burden of proof in a discussion. The razor states that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power.

I suspect we do agree there was an explosion in the West Loch in May of 1944. Six LSTs were sunk (LST-39, LST-43, LST-69, LST-179, LST-353, and LST-480), two already carrying smaller, fully loaded Landing craft tanks (LCT-961, 963 and 983) lashed to their decks. Several LSTs were damaged and/or ran aground. Four (including LST-205 and LST-225) could not be repaired in time for the invasion. Seventeen tracked landing vehicles (LVT) and eight 155 mm (6.1 in) guns were destroyed. Other sources place the total number of destroyed LSTs at nine.

It is very possible and most likely that the salvage operation undertaken to clear the loch after the disaster inadvertently lengthened the hunt for the "fifth midget submarine" involved in the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. After three pieces of a cable wrapped midget submarine were discovered three miles south of Pearl Harbor among the wreckage of many LVTs, a working theory was proved that this was the only submarine in a group of five Japanese Ko-hyoteki class submarines involved in the attack that had not yet been accounted for. Researchers posited that it had penetrated the harbor to attack Battleship Row, before escaping into West Loch and being scuttled by the two-man crew. Lying on the bed of the loch, it was then salvaged along with the remains of the LSTs, LCTs and LVTs and then dumped at sea. It surely could not have made it back out to sea wrapped in those cables on it's own.

On a side note here, if I was in that Whale boat approaching Battleship Row that morning, I might be looking in shock at the remains of my Pacific Fleet under attack in front of me and most likely would have missed that tiny 5 foot black sail some distance behind me that was bobbing in the water for maybe 30 seconds. Sometime simple logic and common sense is the pathway to the truth. Not stories made up or spun to add smoke and confusion to draw us away from the very simple and obvious facts that are right in front of us.





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Tracy White

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Sep 2, 2013 - 7:32pm
Not stories made up or spun to add smoke and confusion to draw us away from the very simple and obvious facts that are right in front of us.

Which is precisely what a lot of the midget sub fired on battleship row proponents seem to do. With regards to the whale boat - I'm sure they'd never have looked back to watch the next plane coming in at the sound of the engine roar building.

The fact is that the harbor is regularly dredged and has been for many, many years. In fact, a torpedo section now on display at the visitor's center came up in a dredge in 1991 - much to the consternation of its crew! The West Loch theory is just one possible explanation, yet it is touted as the only most likely solution due to the LVTs.

I have no problem with the theory; there's certainly nothing that stands out in y mind that would disprove it on the face. However, I find the certainty with which you initially told me to update my research ill advised. Many counters to the proofs have been given - we should approach this with a scientific styled examination of theories. That's not something a TV show wants to do; ratings are better when you present a new truth to the audience.

I've been involved in another Pearl Harbor controversy - that of Arizona's paint scheme and colors at the time of the attack. I have been at the forefront of the research for the last five years (simply because no one can make money off of it - it takes someone with a passion for the subject). With all that involvement, I don't have any hard answers; I simply tell people it's messy and we don't KNOW anything for certain at this point. There is no problem or shame in saying that we don't have all the answers to a question or subject yet.

David, there has been a more-or-less accepted labeling of Pearl Harbor midgets for many decades now, based on the order of discover/contact. The NOVA program did not follow this convention, probably because its explanation really would not have added much to the show.
Midget A was the first, which USS Ward sank
Midget B was second, which Monaghan rammed and sunk
Midget C was third, and was the one that wound up on Oahu's eastern shore.
Midget D was fourth, and was not discovered until 1960, when the new runway for Honolulu International Airport was being built. It was raised with photographic documentation.
Midget E is the one in question.

Tracy White
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David Buck

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Buck   Send Email To David Buck Posted on: Sep 2, 2013 - 9:52pm
Roy,

I appear to have stepped on your tail and stirred the tiger within, please accept that this was not my intention in making the comments within my last post, just my way of changing perspective of the discovery of the Sub in sections off Pearl.

Tracy,

Apart from the need for proof about the operation that found and moved the Sub that you have stated,are there any other questions in your mind that need answering?

Yours,

D.buck

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Roy Forbes

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Roy Forbes  Posted on: Sep 3, 2013 - 2:24pm
No harm taken Dave. I live just 88 air miles from "Groom Lake" and trust me, I am first in line for a good conspiracy or "Black Project" streaking across the night sky out here. I just thought that this sub issue was starting to go over the deep end when all the proof is sitting right there. I hope there are some published still photos out there that were taken during the NOVA dive along with all the video. For me, both the whale boat and 5th sub issue have been solved and are on the shelf.

I never expected this post that was started seeking information about the PT's actions and kills that December morning would turn into such an interesting discussion and generate so many views.


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Bob Butler

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Bob Butler  Posted on: Sep 3, 2013 - 2:38pm
I hear you Roy, I still don't know the colors of the American built Vosper in my 'Future Projects post.


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Will Day

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Will Day   Send Email To Will Day Posted on: Sep 3, 2013 - 4:11pm
If you guys painted everything mauve, at least you wouldn't have all of the experts telling you what shade of mauve it should be.....

Will

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TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: Sep 3, 2013 - 6:05pm
All;
While I did raise the question of the "missing inside the harbor mini sub" I am now swinging over to my equally devious brothers(WILL) point of view, we beat the dead cow here, PT 23 GM 1/C Joy Van Zyll de Jong and TM1/C George Hoffman shot down the first Japanese plane for PT Boats. It was a Kate which crashed in flames near Kuahua Island. END of story.
Take care,
TED


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  Jerry Gilmartin

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jerry Gilmartin   Send Email To Jerry Gilmartin Posted on: Sep 3, 2013 - 6:29pm
No Ted! I want to beat this dead horse a lot more!

Jerry Gilmartin

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Tracy White

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Sep 3, 2013 - 7:14pm
Hey Dave - I'll answer your post and then opt out as I believe the rest of the membership is tired of two people who won't agree (Roy and I).

I still have lots of questions. Where did Midget E's torpedoes go? When/Where was the midget found, and what were the details of the salvage (just general interest). Was the torpedo that Nimitz mentioned from Midget B or E? There's just a ton of details about this aspect of the attack that we don't know. I'd like to help out, but I've got other projects I've invested more time into that need to be finished first.

Tracy White
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