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 Author  Topic: Request permission to come aboard......
Gunner Mike

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Nov 18, 2012 - 9:48pm
I am extremely pleased to find this website and the PT-103 website. I am a 59 year old model builder who primarily builds 1/32 scale USN and USMC aircraft. I also build modern USMC and Russian Armor. Because of the larger scale and the amount of detail that can be done,
I am looking forward to building the Italeri PT-109, I am grateful for all the intel I am finding on both of these websites.

I must forewarn the membership here that as a former member of Uncle Sam's Mis-guided Children, I will ask some stupid questions. My knowledge is very limited regarding USN vessels. In 16 years of service, I spent about 7 total hours on USN ships ( An LPH and an LCAC).

That said, here are some of my first questions;

Once the 80' ELCO' arrived in SWP AO, they were painted with a medium green on vertical and horizontal surfaces. What would be closest FS number to match this green?

Was there any non-skid applied to the deck? (Maybe pumice in the deck paint?)

Was the life raft secured to the deck where the 37 mm was later installed?

That's about it for now, Thank you



Mike Witous

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David Waples

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Waples  Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 5:05am
Quote:


That said, here are some of my first questions;

Once the 80' ELCO' arrived in SWP AO, they were painted with a medium green on vertical and horizontal surfaces. What would be closest FS number to match this green?

Was there any non-skid applied to the deck? (Maybe pumice in the deck paint?)

Was the life raft secured to the deck where the 37 mm was later installed?

That's about it for now, Thank you





Welcome to the board Mike. Glad to hear you will be taking on the Italeri kit. I've been working with some of the guys here to help Italeri produce this kit. I just received my advance copy and it is beautiful. I will be doing a complete review on the kit over the next couple of days. We have some very knowledgeable people here who will be happy to provide detailed information about the boats. You will also find that you will receive a lot of speculation and best guesses. We get pretty passionate about it sometimes so be patient.

I'll start the ball rolling by asking you if you know which boat you're going to build?

Paint color leads to some very spirited discussions that will depend on which boat you are building. What type of paint do you like to use? Now to start the spirited discussion. :-) If you are building the 109, she was at some point painted a field developed green. They didn't have FS numbers there. Italeri suggests FS34102. I just pulled out my FS guide and I think that is very close. Close to what? We have some color photos from one of the skippers who Ted Walter knows. He tied up along side the 109 often and has told Ted that the boat on the starboad side of his gray 77' Elco is the 109. I actually think the boat on the port side tells the story of the mystery green better. You decide but I think FS34102 is a very good choice. These boats heavily weathered in the tropical sun so you see a lot of fading on horizontal surfaces, especially the decks.



As far as non skid goes on the 80' Elco there are only two areas I can think of that have this and I'm not totally sure if it is non skid as you and I would think of it. Maybe somebody can help with that. You will see two black squares on the top of the chart house and day cabin adjacent to the two turrets. They are also right next to steps on the sides of these structures. The rest of the horizontal surfaces are all just painted.

The life raft at least on the 109 doesn't appear in any reference photos. We do know that JFK had a small dingy that he used but it wasn't on board the boat. Mostly the boat crews would put them somewhere to keep them out of the way and you rarely see them on the foredeck. Usually on the top of the chart house in front of the helm or on the day cabin. The good news for you is that Italeri didn't include a raft in the kit. That said they are planning on introducing one in future releases of this kit.

I think that covers your questions for now. No doubt there will be more.

Once again welcome to the board.

Dave

David Waples

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David Waples

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Waples  Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 6:13am
Here's a probable glimpse of PT-109 (starboard side of PT-61). The skipper of PT-61 in this picture said that he was tied up along side JFK. While you can't see a boat number we do have the word of the veteran who was there.




David Waples

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Frank J Andruss Sr

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Frank J Andruss Sr   Send Email To Frank J Andruss Sr Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 6:29am
Welcome to the message board. Trust me, anything to do with PT-109 will gather a fire-storm of answers, which should help you in your build. Color is always a good source of back and forth banter here, but as Dave has alluded to, the color match for paint is pretty close. Remember, there are really no good color shots of any of these boats from the Squadron at that time, so the photos Dave has put up here, will help some. I guess my first question is how you intend to build the boat. Out of the Elco Factory, she was gray, and did have her Balsa Raft on the bow, which was quickly removed by the crew's to make room.

Some stored the raft on the dayroom, and some were removed altogether, and replaced by the rubber type raft, later on. Painting in the field was pretty much what was available by the Quartermaster, and in some instances, paint was mixed to get that certain green color. I must say over the years, I have seen PT-109 models painted every shade of green available. I am not 100% sure, but I do not think any type of paint mixed to make a rough service was used coming out of Elco. Maybe someone here has a better idea of that, but I have not heard of it being used. If you are making the model to appear as if it was out in the Pacific, than there would be certainly fading of the paint on the upper surfaces of the day room and chart house areas, not to mention deck areas wherever the guys moved about. The combination of salt water and the hot blazing sun changed the color of the boat quickly. Good luck with your project and welcome aboard.


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TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 7:11am
MIke;
Welcome to the board.

David;
I actually have the word of another veteran who was there. The boat on the starboard side of PT 61 is PT 109, but the boat on the port side o PT 61(the other 77' ELCO) is PT 48! John Iles was Skipper at the time, and he has also confirmed, that while at Searlesville(where the photos were taken in late May 1943), He either tied up next to Ken and Joe in PT 61, or Jack in PT 109. The three were always nested together. Do you have the photo of the crews going to chow in the LCVP? This shows the same boats, but is futher away and shows all 3.
Take care,
TED


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Gunner Mike

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 9:41am
Gentlemen,

Pinning down the green color of the early boats is about as difficult as matching Israeli armor sand gray or modern Russian armor green. Like David said, the green was probably mixed from whatever the quartermaster had in stock, I have access to a color spectrometer at work and match FS numbers to Tamiya paint mixes. I will post the formula in a future message. BTW the color pictures posted are outstanding.

As far as the non-skid on the deck goes, if it is there, it is very very subtle according to these and other pictures. The life raft is a mystery.

Right now I am leaning towards a build of the 109 as she was fitted before the 37mm was lashed to the deck. To me she looks much "cleaner" without it. I have built the Italeri 596 boat with all the late war weapons which kind of reminds me of how they modified our AFV's in Iraq and Afghanistan, sort of like a Mad Max movie.

I would hope that Italeri would come out with some figures depicting the crews of these SWP boats. I did find some resin helmets, life vests etc. from a company called Royal Model. I am sure some photo etch is being worked on as well.

Thank you for your responses. What is model building without passion?

Out here







Mike Witous

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TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 10:40am
Mike;
About the non-skid, as far as I know, none was ever used.
Take care,
TED


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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 11:53am
Welcome to the board Mike! I'm glad you're finding this site and my pt103 site helpful.

The non skid surfaces on the tops of the chart house and day room on the 103-196 & 314-367 Elco deck arrangement drawing are described as "non-skid rubber mat". After that, the description is "tri-m-ite pads". Today, tri-m-ite is 3M's black wet or dry sandpaper. I'm betting you already knew that. I don't know how similar past and current products are, in particular the color. Black would be a good bet. The chart house and day room turret steps also had non skid applied to their tops. I have no idea if the 109 had any kind of non-skid on her decks.

Ah yes, the PT 109 green subject. If I remember right, someone who asked 4 former crew members said 2 stated the boat was gray and 2 stated the boat was green. I understand that, it would be like someone asking me what color house I lived in when I was 20. Although you can't see the "109" on her, I think Ted has come up with the best reference yet, color pictures and statements from a man that was there! Well done Ted. I saw someone on another forum say that he didn't think that it was the 109 in the photos. When asked why despite the skippers statements, he stated that he had a "gut feeling". That's one of the funnier comments about the subject I've seen. Even if it's not the 109, it most likely would be the same color. I asked a former crewman of PT 103, Jack Duncan, about the shade of green the all-green PT boats had, he replied "they were GREEN". Just like in Ted's photos. It makes sense to me as opposed to an olive drab, it matchs the green of tropical vegetation but I'm certainly no camouflage expert.



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TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 12:51pm
Mike and Jeff;
Non- skid "stick-on-pads", yes, these were also on the 77" ELCO's, however, I was refering too Non skid paint, this is what I thought Mike was asking about.
Today's Non-skid is two part (E wt73lbs and F wt 25-30lbs) and when mixed, weighs in the neighborhood of 100 lbs. (for each 5 gal can).
Now the average 5 gal can (oddly enough the can I referenced was Green! Green # 14062 which is an enamel british racing green/forrest green color)of paint is 65 lbs.
I wonder if C.J., Earl or Jack, remembers how many 5 gal paint cans were used during one of their re-paints?
Take care,
TED


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Gunner Mike

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 8:11pm
I just figured out to respond individually to your reply. Thank you for the information. FS 34102 looks like a pretty good match. As greens fade they get lighter and grayer. The reflectance also changes. I would be curious to find out if the boats were hand painted or sprayed. More than likely a combination of both.

Are the overhead sky lights green tinted?


Again Thanks

Mike Witous

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