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Topic: Interesting artifact up for auction. PT109 |
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Frank J Andruss Sr
TOP BOSS
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 Posted on: Aug 6, 2012 - 1:43am
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I am not totally sold on the concept that selling this piece of History constitutes any wrong doing. In my own experience, my exhibit takes in roughly 75% of it's artifacts from donations of those PT BOAT VETS that have brought these items home. Many of the artifacts we see now surfacing are only because those Vets have passed on. I can't tall you how many family members I have dealt with over the years, that simply have no clue what to do with these items. Many as I said, donate them, if not to me, than some other Museum.
The other 25% of the items in my exhibit were from cash purchases. Just recently I bought 2 hats, medals, and a deck jacket from the daughters of the Skipper of PT-60. They only sold the items because they needed the money for medical expenses. I don't consider these items as being stolen form the US NAVY, although I have heard of items taken with the Skippers permission when they have left the boat, or after the war, when the boats were being Decommissioned at Base 17. I guess it might all be considered a fine line as to what the Law might say, but I do not consider it a reason to try and stop the sale of the builders plaque. I have found that not every artifact will be donated by the people who have them. Some look at it as a way to make a few bucks, and nothing more, and others really need the money, although they hate to part with this wonderful history.
I would love to own a plaque with such historical meaning, hey for those of us that love PT BOATS, who wouldn't, but sometimes it just isn't that simple. I think in this case, why raise any red flags, why send letters and open up a case for this one artifact. You could be opening up a larger can of worms. Just my own opinion here..............
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29navy
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Aug 6, 2012 - 4:51am
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In no way was I suggesting that Mr Manning stole this. I just know how the Navy can be when it comes to old ships and airplanes.
My initial thought was that when JFK and PT-109 was a big thing, between 1960 and 1963, you would have thought that this might have come up. At that time, people were looking for anything that might have had some connection with the Kenndys.
But something else I was wondering, doesn't $20,000-30,000 seem a bit excessive for an estimated price? I mean, really. Yes, (if it's legit) it did come off the 109, and was theoretically off the boat before JFK arrived. So he never saw it, touched it, smelled it, etc.which lessens it actual historical connection. Now, if they brought it up from the bottom of Blacket Strait that would be another story. I know it is hard to put a price on a one of a kind item, even something that has some significant historical connection.
I just don't see it going that high, unless you have a couple of guys with more money than brains bidding against each other.
Oh well, I guess we'll see what happens.
Charlie |
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David Waples
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Posted on: Aug 6, 2012 - 5:22am
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What auction houses estimate and what they actually go for can be two very different things. No telling how much this would sell for. It may be one of the only pieces of that boat that isn't a war grave. The price could go much higher. It will be interesting to see what happens with this piece. Hopefully somehow it ends up in a museum where people can see it under secured conditions.
Dave
David Waples |
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Will Day
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Posted on: Aug 6, 2012 - 6:27am
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Frank, I agree with you. Probably best to just watch and see what happens.
Will |
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CJ Willis
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Posted on: Aug 6, 2012 - 8:46am
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Guys I guess I am a thief. I brought home a a ripped and torn flag from PT 242. The skipper Mr. McLane told me to replace it on the radar mast with a new flag. Which I did. I folded the old flag up put it in my sea bag and brought it home with me. The skipper never gave me permission to keep the flag or how to dispose of it. I certainly can't see that Mr. Manning did anything wrong by bringing the plaque home. I gave the 242 flag years ago to Boats Newberry and it is now at Battle Ship Cove Museum.
C. J. Willis |
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Madden
New Member
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Posted on: Aug 6, 2012 - 12:26pm
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HQs has all fingers and toes crossed in hopes the people at Doyle has soft hearts. Hopefully they'll donate these artifacts to the PT Boats, Inc. museum.
Smooth sailing |
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Drew Cook
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Posted on: Aug 6, 2012 - 12:39pm
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Don't agree at all with Bill that Manning's removal and possession of the plate was "theft," but -- I certainly do agree with Jerry that the Navy could get on their high horse and be arbitrary on their decision as to what is or isn't still "Navy property." It's the difference between ''the letter of the law" and "the spirit of the law."
Whether or not the Manning family should profit between $20,000 and $30,000 from the sale of this artifact is a tough call, though...
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David Waples
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Aug 6, 2012 - 6:03pm
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Here's a fantasy for you. The piece is donated to the PT Boats museum. The owners get a big tax deduction for such a kind donation, and the US Navy claims rights and allows the museum to maintain the artifact on loan. How's that for a happy ending! I know... pipe dream.
No thief's here. Hell, they burned most of the boats or sold them to other countries. This is just one of those things that has turned into legend and thus has become very valuable.
Dave
David Waples |
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Allan
MASTER
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Posted on: Aug 7, 2012 - 7:40pm
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This shines a bright light on another area of "Gov't. Property". How many Colt .45 1911's and 1911A1's went home with vets. They are valued in most cases now in the thousands, each, depending upon condition and historical record for each. If the government ever went after those pistols, there would be a great hue and cry! Interesting delema.
Allan
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Frank J Andruss Sr
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Aug 8, 2012 - 4:01am
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I think it was a blessing that our WWII VETS did bring home many of these items. I certainly would not have an Exhibit if they didn't, and can you imagine our Museums without these artifacts. Each artifact tells a story for future generations. As far as the PT-109 name plate,of course it would be great if it was in a museum, but when a family decides to sell an item, you just hope for the best. I have had luck in the past contacting families that are selling items that decide to donate, but it's not always a sure thing.
Many large museums take in these items, but they are under no obligation to display them. I had visited several museums in hopes to maybe donate some of my artifacts, under the terms that they have it on display all the time. They refused to do this, so remember that many Museums take in artifacts, but do not have to display them, and once it becomes the property of that Museum, they can do whatever they want with the artifact. I guess I am getting a bit off base here. As far as the price, many PT BOAT artifacts are priceless, and as Charlie said, although a really nice piece, it is not worth that asking price, but I must admit, if I was the type of guy that had money to spend, I would be right there in that biding war. I will be curious to see what this treasure might bring.
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