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 Author  Topic: PT 109 What was left after the crash?
David Buck

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Buck   Send Email To David Buck Posted on: Feb 7, 2012 - 6:43pm
Hmm, on were the major portion of the hull may be (take this with a pinch of salt guys!)

JOKE

Fred sees Barry at night looking for something on the ground ,
Fred walkes over to Barry and says can I help you look
Barry says that would be great I just lost a $100.00 dollar diamond
Fred helps Barry look for a while and after covering a fair area without succes Fred asks Barry were did you lose it
Barry replies over there in the dark patch
Fred asks "then why are we looking here"?
Barry answers "the lights better over here"
Fred "**&&%%$###@" AND WALKS OFF

And this brings into perspective Roger Ballards statement in his book Collision With History "It is to hard to search Ferguson passage so we will concentrate our search in Blackett Straight which is like a mill pond compared to Ferguson.

Ballard got lucky and found what the experts agree is a Torpedo tube from the PT 109 But as Frank has asked were are the other large items of the boat.

It was also put forward in Ballards book that the 109 would have been dragged down soon after the men left her due to the weight onboard but if she was shedding items such as her torpedo tubes (one of which may be Ballards find) she may have remained afloat a lot longer than the experts have allowed.

Over to you Frank ,Jeff and Dick what is your take on this, sorry I did not mean to exclude you Jerry, my mistake.

D.buck

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Jeff Sherry

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff Sherry  Posted on: Feb 12, 2012 - 4:32pm
I was also dissapointed in the National Geographic Special-didn't really find anything. Great visuals and talking to the 105's skipper and he natives but no actual positive confirmation was a let down.


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whitakermk

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Feb 20, 2012 - 5:50am
I have the Ballard book at home, Frank and I were just talking about this the other day. Ballard was in Chattanooga for a seminar at the Tennessee Aquarium and on the radio for a couple of hours. He talked Titanic to PT-109 and more. I'll crack that book open again and post anything I see in there.



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I am a proud Army Strong Dad who has a deep appreciation for all who serve and have served our country.

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smallwi

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of smallwi  Posted on: Feb 20, 2012 - 10:27am
Gentleman,

In my humble opinion I do not think the boat was sliced in two. I think the boat was struck at a very narrow angle to the centerline, leaving the bulk of the stern attached to the boat. Two reasons for this thought was McMahon"s description of what he observed just before going in the water. I am still mystified how McMahon stayed with the boat so long, and avoided the Amagiri's screws, riding the starboard engine. The second reason was the sharp angle of the floating bow section, which the crew had difficulty staying aboard. It is possible that two if not all three engines remained with the hull.

All speculation, but if Amagiri merely took off the starboard side of the boat a great deal of the boat would remain intact yet the aft end would sink due to loss of integrity in the tank compartment, engine room and lazerette. The debris field (such as it could be with such a small craft) would be indistinguishable. Limited to a torpedo tube and maybe one engine.

Bill



Bill Smallshaw

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Drew Cook

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Drew Cook  Posted on: Feb 20, 2012 - 7:15pm
It seems to me that the existing conventional wisdom, for many years after the event, had the boat being completely cut in two, with the stern, heavy with the three engines, sinking, and the bow remaining afloat.

Recent, revisionist history seems to have the Amagiri running over the boat at a very sharp angle along and over the starboard side, mangling it and causing the stern to flood and submerge under the surface -- perhaps cleaving away a part of the starboard quarter section of the stern, maybe even possibly the starboard engine -- but not cutting the boat completely in two.

It's anyone's guess which is correct. Reading interviews with the surviving crew and various written descriptions of the event can be interpreted to make the case for either scenario.

As an aside, Robert J. Donovan, who conducted extensive interviews with the surviving crew in researching and writing his book "PT 109 - John F. Kennedy in World War II," has motor mac McMahon "...climbing over machinery...when a tremendous jolt flung him sideways against the starboard bulkhead and toppled him into a sitting position alongside an auxiliary generator," so -- he wasn't riding the tractor seat atop the starboard engine at all at the time of the collision (and probably wasn't even looking at the engine annunciators when JFK threw the throttles forward in the cockpit).




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David Buck

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Buck   Send Email To David Buck Posted on: Feb 21, 2012 - 1:59am
Here's a thougth about the idea of the 109 being cut in two.

If we look at the collision as cutting across the centre of the boat the 'normal' thing is that as the boat is struck the two sections of the hull tend to be driven down at the point of inpact and up at its outer points.

If this happened in the case of the 109 then it can be seen that there is the possiblity that there would have been a far greater loss of life among the crew as there would have more of them thrown towards the point of inpact i.e.against the destroyers side as she went through the boat.

If we look at the collision as cutting through the boat at a sharp angle and taking the starboard side off the boat the action of the inpact tends to throw the crew over the port side of the boat, allowing for more of the crew to survive as they are being thrown away from the point of inpact.

As always there are exceptions to this rule but as there were a large number of the crew to survive then it tends to show that the side inpact story could be the one that is right in this case.

Just my thougths though.




D.buck

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Donald Shannon

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Donald Shannon  Posted on: Feb 21, 2012 - 12:11pm
I have posted this letter from a PT Boater that I interviewed thought it should be included on the message board.







Donald Shannon

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Donald Shannon

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Donald Shannon  Posted on: Feb 21, 2012 - 12:29pm

I am posting this letter from a PT Boater that I interview years ago. I had to delete the first version it had to much of his personal information and I do not have his okay to share it publicly.







Donald Shannon

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David Buck

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of David Buck   Send Email To David Buck Posted on: Feb 22, 2012 - 12:55am
Hmm!, A bit inconclusive to say the least,aside from the fact that there were two PT Boats 117,164 attacked by the Japs strriped and disposed of and remain in Rendova Lagoon to this day, James needs to I.D. himself at least to the rank and reason for being at Rendova in 1944.

Also one has to ask how long the 109 would have lasted bobbing around in the solomons for nearly a year, with the cyclone season turning anything on the surface and free to be sent were ever the seas would send it into crap very quickly.

As there were I belive quite a lot of other servicemen at Rendova with a number of them P T Boat men one would think something like the 109s hull on a beach at Rendova would have been quite an attraction and many of them would have visited the wreck with I am sure many a story told of the visit and as we have here on the board plenty of photos to show around, but this is the first we hear of it?

Makes me think that it is the remains of either 117 or 164 and some wag may have painted 109 on it to display to the new guys as a bit of fun, just as service men do all over the world! ( And I think James got suckered in just as was intended by his new mates! )

Any photos James?

They sure would help.

D.buck

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Frank J Andruss Sr

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Frank J Andruss Sr   Send Email To Frank J Andruss Sr Posted on: Feb 22, 2012 - 1:52am

Evans the Coast Watcher reported seeing the hulk floating South in Ferguson Passage, about one half mile from Gross Island. The next day I think Evans confirmed it was a wreck, and on August 5th, US planes had reported a wreck, but was not worth wasting ammo..... I would have thought the rising tides, and currents would have carried the hulk out where she would have sunk. Although these reports exist, Evans nor anyone else got close enough to the wreck to ever confirm it was PT-109 that they were seeing....................... I tend to doubt that James saw PT-109, one year after the sinking on shore.




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