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Topic: They Were Expendable movie |
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David Buck
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 4:54am
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Hi Dick great shots,just thinking out loud here but after looking at the shot of the 41 Boat being towed away what if this is not a 77' or 80' Elco at all but something they used to stand in for the 41 boat.
After looking at Victors photo on page 82 of the elco slipper and looking at some of the rear shots of the start up scenes this stren has a point or two that stand out,like the gap between the two banks of exhausts seems far two wide also the deck overhang is two small with a non standard extra timber strip under it and the chines are not as pronounced as they should be, the rudders do not appear to have the right shape to them and there does not appear to be anything on the deck after the day room this is more apperant on a long shot over Ward Bonds shoulder a few seconds later and if they had used an 80' for the scene why would the depression rail on the rear 50's be faceing the wrong way as Dicks last shot shows.
Returning to the long shot over Ward Bonds shoulder it appears to me that the overhang after the day room is a little to long so have a look at that Dick and see what you think
By the way just wondered if anyone had picked up a point earlier in the film this being, after the 34 Boat is stood down as John wayne has been told he is off to Hospital the 41 Boat pulls away from the dock in a forward faceing scene being watched by John Wayne standing on the bow of the 34 Boat then in the next scene taken from rearward the 34? Boat powers up and followers the 41 Boat out to sink the Japs converted cruiser.
So if the 34 Boat was taking Wayne to hospital they would have waited for the 31 Boat to leave but the implication of the scenes are that these two boats are off to sink the Jap.(also no third boat leaves)
D.buck |
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TED WALTHER |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 6:35am
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Gentleman;
Wow!! There is some really great detective work going on here!! I always new they used a 77 for the beach burning scene, but i never noticed the 77 used as a mocked up 80! The photo evidence sure points to this happening. I wonder if the boat was PT 38????
Take care,
TED
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Will Day
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 7:30am
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I think another obvious point (discussed before) is that the tubes shown on the shots of the 34 boat posted by Dick sure look like mockups. Taken together with some of the other points brought up, I'm wondering if there was indeed some other type of hull used in some of the shots (like maybe a ASR boat?) Having worked in the film industry, I know what the utility of having a "mock-up" hull that could be redressed for various setups (and burned at the end) would be, especially as these things are almost never shot in sequence from beginning to end.
Will |
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TED WALTHER
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 7:51am
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Will
Along the same lines, of your thinking, might they have used "The Austin Trainer" as the basis of the cockpit structure? According to the Administrative history of PT's, they felt this was a defective training device, so what better way to use it and get rid of it. just an idea..
Take care,
TED
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29navy
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 11:30am
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Quote:
Will
Along the same lines, of your thinking, might they have used "The Austin Trainer" as the basis of the cockpit structure? According to the Administrative history of PT's, they felt this was a defective training device, so what better way to use it and get rid of it. just an idea..
Take care,
TED
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Don't think it was the Austin Trainer as it stayed there til it closed. When they closed, they were still working on plans on fix it.
Charlie |
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29navy
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 11:36am
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Quote:
The evidence seems to be pretty conclusive when you view the enlarged photo's. I watched the beaching scene several times, and I must say she sure looks like a 77 Footer. In any case, it seems as though at least one 77 footer was used for the making of this movie. It would be nice to know which one was chosen for this movie, and just curious was that 77 footer ever used under her own power, or was she just pulled along to appear she was under her own power.
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Part of the problem is that when the 77-footers were declared obsolete adn reclassified as small boats, the requirement for keeping deck logs ceased. And there was nothing in the MTBSTC War Diaries to indicate if any 77-footer went to Miami (although they probably were really assigned to MTBRTU...havent found their war diary yet.)
Charlie |
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29navy
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 12:30pm
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Quote:
Per info from the PT SEA STORIES tapes, the boats used in EXPENDABLE were Elcos 139 & 141 and Huckins 99,100,101 & 102.
Will
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According to my research, I have PTs 98, 100, 101, 102, 139, 141, and 315 that participated.
Charlie |
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ROSS FISHER
Advanced Member
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Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 8:40pm
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GREAT SCREEN CAPTURES AND COMMENTS. ON THE PT VIDEO "SEA STORIES #1"' THE LATE EMIL SARGIS SAID CARPENTERS BUILT THE WOODEN TORPEDO TUBES ON THE HUCKINS BOATS. THE .50 CALIBER MUZZLE FLASHES APPEAR ONLY IN THE CLOSEUPS: IN THE LONGER SHOTS, THERE'S NO MUZZLE FLASH. THEY WERE ADDED TO THE FILM LATER IN THE STUDIO, AS WERE THE AIRBURSTS THAT APPEAR PERFECTLY IN THE FRAME. DONE PRE-CGI, IT ALL LOOKS PRETTY IMPRESSIVE.
THE MOVIE WAS VOTED #6 IN A 2002 SEA CLASSICS POLL OF THE "GREATEST SEA FILMS' OF ALL TIME BY 2,113 READERS.
ROSS FISHER
ross@dupagels.lib.il.us |
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Wayne Traxel |
MASTER
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Posted on: Dec 21, 2011 - 2:41pm
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I'll be. Good eyes. Never noticed the 77'er posing as an 80 footer. Did wonder about the bow design of 34 in the re-launching scene at Dads, bow shape and lower chine was wrong for an 80.
Lightened up Dick's 34 burning shots to see if I could bring out more detail
My first impression was that the charthouse appears to be a later 45-68 series 77'er, but the flames obscure the detail at the front of the charthouse and raises some doubt. However if the boot was removed from a 20-44 series charthouse, it could be an early series boat too.
Frank posted this shot on the message board about 3 years ago and Dick determined this craft to be PT-38. Ted may be on to something.
Wayne Traxel |
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David Buck
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Dec 22, 2011 - 4:06am
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Hi Wayne ,
The more times I look at the scene on the beach the more that I think they produced a mockup for the burning Boat. The fact that when they cut back to the boat after John Wayne and they use a differant ccmera setup that no longer shows the beach,palm trees or the crew says a lot.
the other thing is that only the cabin and rear day room areas are on fire and very intense fire at that,one has to ask why the cabin would burn as fircely as that as there is not all that much to burn in that area but timber, and if that were the case then you would think that the deck would also be on fire but nowere is the deck on fire.
So a purpose built fire prop could well have been made to simulate the 34 Boat in its last minutes, this prop could be burnt again and again till the director was happy.
As to the cabin of the 77' boat on this prop as they had replaced the cabin of the 77' boat to replicate an 80'er the carpenter team that built the prop deck may have had the old cabin and decided to use it to save some build time as this does apear to be a forward cabin off a 77' Boat with windshild and all in the correct place. Otherwise why would they have not just built a 80' Boat mockup forward cabin. I do not think they built the 80' cabin directly over the 77' cabin again as the windshild is still in place and this would foul the 80' cabin.
It would be nice to find out if the 77' Boat was the PT 38 that would mean that one of the first batch of PT Boats was in the Movie that is telling the the story of Ron 3, thats about as close to useing the boats that the story is about that one could get.
Somewere there has to be someone that can connect the dots of this therad, I wonder if M.G.M. has anything that can be researched about the production?
D.buck |
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