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TGConnelly

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Nov 23, 2011 - 6:19am
I have a real question ....

I have stated that the 196 was in two greens when she had that unique and short-lived one-off scheme with that shark's mouth and eyes on her bow.

Mr. Ross now indicates that I am wrong and that she was in an adaption of Measure 14. He says that based on what Mr. David Swasey said.

My question is:

Follow my logic here ...

PT-196 was an unit of Squadron 12, correct?

According to the table in ACF, VOL II on page 179, PTs 187 to 195 came from the factory in Measure 31/5P, correct?

If all of the boats from RON 12 came from the factory en mass in that scheme, then, why would ONE boat be painted in a totally different Measure?

Also, Mr. Ross indicates that Mr. Swasey had written that they were trying to achieve a soft Adaptor Scheme effect ...

My question is ...

If that was so? Why put a gawdy Shark's mouth and eyes on the boat? That would defeat the purpose - would it not?

And, if the other boats of RON 12 came from the factory (as evidenced by Mr. Ross' own table in his book) in Measure 31/5P ... i.e.: two greens, would it not be logical to think and assume that the 196 would also be in the same greens as her squadron-mates?

Or, was Mr. Ross saying that Mr. Swasey was saying that they were attempting to achieve a soft Adaptor Scheme effect with Measure 31/5P?




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TGConnelly

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Nov 23, 2011 - 11:05am
This prompted my question:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Your 196 should be two Greens and not Grays ...





Not according to David Swasey, the ELCO camoufleur. In describing the scheme on 196, he writes ...Back of the face, we finished out the hull in dark and light gray wavey lines - a sort of quiet 'Adaptor System'.

Al Ross


Is that something told to Mr. Ross in a private correspondence or is it something ANYONE can access? And, where can one find this?




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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Nov 23, 2011 - 12:49pm
Why? Experimentation of course! The 196 was also fitted with the hull appendage which like the Elcoplane never made it to prime time. Here's an image, sorry for the poor quality:



I'd guess the mouth was to inspire fear in the enemy.

Minus the appendage, American PT Boats In WW2 has an image of the 196. It names it the "Green Dragon". Possibly the decks, topsides, and forward hull was painted green? It sounds logical but all the logic in the world can't replace fact so I don't know.



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TGConnelly

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Nov 23, 2011 - 1:02pm
Another reason why I think she was in greens, ... why would a gray boat be called GREEN DRAGON if she was not green to start with? Especially when you take into account that the table from Mr. Ross' book states that the 187 to 195 came from the factory wearing Measure 31/5P?

One and one equals?

No?


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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Nov 23, 2011 - 1:19pm
Forgot to mention, the image is from http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/PT/PT-196.html.

Dr. Ross mentions the hull aft of the face.

One and one is a fact, logic is a guess. I'm sure Dr. Ross can most likely shed some light on this.



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TGConnelly

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Nov 23, 2011 - 1:40pm
Well, for me? Logic lies within and stems from facts ...


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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: Nov 23, 2011 - 1:49pm
Not sure what you're saying there Garth.

Of interest, according to http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/pt/list.htm the 195 and 196 were launched about the same time (February) but the completed dates show the 196 was 2 months later.

January - 172-182
February - 183-193
March - 194-195
April - none
May - 196

The appendage drawing has an "approved" date of March 1943.



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alross2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of alross2   Send Email To alross2 Posted on: Nov 23, 2011 - 3:05pm
Swasey's statement is a direct quote from his contemporary monograph on ELCO camouflage. On page 121 of his U.S. PATROL TORPEDO BOATS IN WORLD WAR II, Garth cites this document and provides a supposed quote from it, so apparently he has/had access to it. I could not find that passage in my copy of the material.

Interestingly, on pages 111-112, Garth writes: ...PT196, prior to her shipment, was painted in a modified application of Measure 14 with wavy lines painted down the length of her hull of Haze Gray (5-H) with a shark's mouth painted on her bow with two eyes. This paint job was superseded by the application of the colors of Measure 31/5P... For those unfamiliar with Measure 14, all vertical surfaces are Ocean Gray (5-O).

The photos of 196 with the shark's mouth motif were taken in the States, most likely before she was handed over to the USN. Note the ELCO burgee on the mast and the workers in civilian clothes in this photo:



As Jeff noted, the 196 was used as a test bed for a variety of items, including the slipper tank, the enlarged engine room hatch, and the abortive lightweight ELCO 20mm mount.




So, we have primary documentation in the form of:

a. written statements from a person directly involved with the development of the color scheme
b. photos showing the boat in that scheme prior to delivery to the USN

Perhaps Garth can provide some equally credible primary documentation that this scheme was repeated in greens?

Al Ross





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TGConnelly

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Nov 23, 2011 - 3:47pm
Mr. Ross,

Was Mr. Swasey's "monograph" a handwritten document?

I remember having a handwritten doc by a man named Swasey, is that it? If it is? I no longer have it.

Where can I obtain another copy?

However, my question remains;

Why would a boat destined for RON 12 - When all of her near sisters came from the factory in Measure 31/5P - be painted in another Measure in different colors?

It does not make sense.




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TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: Nov 23, 2011 - 3:59pm
Al and everyone else;
Here is a nicer photo, again notice Elco Burgee is atop the mast.
Take care,
TED




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