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 Author  Topic: Question about insignia.....for paratrooper 82
  TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: Jul 9, 2011 - 6:52pm
I have seen the PT BOAT patch placed above the rank insignia, the left fore arm and the right fore arm. I think theses were placed as to the individual squardrons uniform direction. However, with that said, I originally believe that PT BOAT crew had there patch placed above their rank insignia, while the Squadron support personnel had theirs on the left fore arm, and the base force and tender personnel would have theirs sewn on their right sleeve. However, I have seen boat crew photos of crew in their dress uniforms that don't support my theory. No this doesn't mean I am wrong, because maybe these fellows were originally assigned in one of the other fields and later assigned to a boat and just did not alter their uniform. I just can't prove my theory is correct....Yet.
As for the PT Boat Warfare insignia, there was none, the patch was it. The pins and Tie clips you seen today, (most are reproductions), were originally given by the manufacturers, Elco(Gold and silver 80 footer) and Higgins(PT 450, but the boat represented on the pin is really PT 564 "The Higgins Hellcat", I have mainly seen silver ones, I have only seen one gold and I am not sure if it is not a reproduction) to the comissioning crews of each boat. The officers would get Gold tie clips and the Chiefs Silver, these were later authorized to be worn with their uniform. The ones with the pin back(safety pin type) I don't believe were intended for the uniform, I believe this was intended more of a pin for the guys wife or Mom, but I have seen it placed on a uniform above the medals and with a ruptured duck insignia on the right chest. I am not to sure if the Tie pins you see today were original, I think they were after market recent creations(since 1960 Kennedy election and later with the "Kennedy 60" removed).Later in the war Vosper, Herrschoff, and Harbor Boats came out with their own versions. There is also one that came out for Air Sea rescue boats.
IF ANY ONE HAS MORE INFO ON THESE PLEASE POST IT.
Hope this helps.
Take care,
TED



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Allan

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Allan   Send Email To Allan Posted on: Jul 9, 2011 - 7:41pm
Ted:
After reading your post I went through some of my photos, which are all of Division 17 (Rons 2 and 6) and none later than early 1943. I found three in dress blues and none had the MTB patch above the rank insignia. In two, the sleeves were not showing in the photo but in the third, the MTB insignia is placed clearly upon the right forearm. Each of these sailors are known to have been original to the early boats as part of the commissioning crews, not part of the base force.

I offer this to assist in your research.

Allan


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TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: Jul 9, 2011 - 9:11pm
Allen
See this is what I mean, I have found nothing to support my theory! I guess they just sewed it wherever.
Take care,
TED


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Frank J Andruss Sr

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Frank J Andruss Sr   Send Email To Frank J Andruss Sr Posted on: Jul 10, 2011 - 3:19am
In checking some of my photo's, it would seem that these insignia were placed in several areas. In one photo of RON 12 Commisioning, four guys are sitting at a table at the Yacht Club, one has PT on his forearm sleeve, while another has mosquito insignia on shoulder. In checking some of my donated uniforms, two have mosquito insignia on left sleeve, two on right, and two PT insignia on forearms............. A REAL MYSTERY HERE.


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Paratrooper82

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Jul 10, 2011 - 7:27am
Ted, Frank, Allan:

It is good to know that I was not the only one confused.

In the one photo I that I have of my grandfather in uniform he has the PT Patch above his rating/rank. In everything that I have read and researched it was just the patch; the orders from 1944 I found said PT Insignia and I am still researching to find the BUPER C.L. 265-44 which is the authorization order for the "PT Insignia". I have a request in at the National Archives for a copy of this message. Might help clear up at least some of the confusion about what side, etc.

Kelly




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29navy

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of 29navy  Posted on: Jul 10, 2011 - 9:13am
Here's what I have from my research for the MTBSTC book:

on August 11, 1943, the Navy authorized, via Bureau of Personnel Circular Letter (BPCL) 153-43, the Patrol Torpedo Boat distinguishing mark consisting only of the block letters “PT”. Enlisted men serving aboard PT boats were authorized to wear this mark on the left sleeve of their blue and white uniform jumper, halfway between the wrist and elbow. The letters were to be embroidered in silk or rayon, in white on blue cloth for the blue uniform and in blue on white cloth for the white uniform.

Another insignia change occurred when BPCL 265-44 was signed on September 14, 1944 which replaced the block “PT” distinguishing mark with a shoulder patch. This patch was circular with a rope-design around the edge. Inside this circle were the letters “PT” and a torpedo with one line coming off the top and three coming off the bottom to signify the wake as the torpedo goes through the water. It is specified as being white on a navy blue background. This insignia was to be worn on the left sleeve with the top placed ½-inch below the shoulder seam. (a white patch with blue sewing did not officially exist.)

There also was a proposed PT Boat qulaification insignia, similar to the submariners but it was not approved. Neither was additional pay.

About wearing the PT Boat "PT" patch or the Shoulder insignia, you had to be a qualified PT Boater and have it recorded in your service record in order to wear it. This was accomplished by completing the course (at Melville) or had six months in an operational squadron. Tender and base personnel did not qualify as "PT qualified" and were not authorized to wear the patch unless they qualified prior to being assigned.

The earlier unauthorized but tolerated Disney Mosquito patches were worn on the lower part of the sleeve as the Navy had no authorized shoulder patces of any kind at that time. If you see teh authorized shoulder patches on the lower part of the sleeve, it was miss interpretation (or not reading the regulations) of where it went with some thinking it just replaced the "PT" patch which was worn on the lower sleeve.



Charlie

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29navy

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of 29navy  Posted on: Jul 10, 2011 - 9:29am
In regards to the PT Boat pins, they were never authorized as a qualification badge/pin or even a part of the navy medal/pin inventory. Mainly as sweetheart jewelry. As tie clips, they could be worn for those who wore ties (officers and chiefs).

Also, as far as I have found, the gold for officers and silver for enlisted men was something that came about in 1974.



Charlie

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Paratrooper82

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Jul 10, 2011 - 3:48pm
Charlie,

Would it be possible to get a copy of the BUPERS Message C.L. 265-44 emailed to me?

Kelly


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29navy

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of 29navy  Posted on: Jul 10, 2011 - 5:09pm
Sure, but it will take me a little while. I lost my hard drive back in January and although I restored my files, I'm not sure where it is.



Charlie

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Paratrooper82

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message   Posted on: Jul 10, 2011 - 5:58pm
Thanks.


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