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 Author  Topic: Ron 9 on the Whie Plains
TheBridge

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TheBridge  Posted on: May 23, 2010 - 6:12pm
Nat- nothing jumps right out at me except what a snow storm!.
It does show nicely the liter door in the lower section for the forward turret (used to clean it out debris & shells and remove a wounded gunner) and that the forward window in the day cabin is flush with the side of the cabin while the other two are recessed and have a brim across the top. (sorry, it's the model maker in me constantly checking for such details).

Bridge


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TED WALTHER

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TED WALTHER   Send Email To TED WALTHER Posted on: May 23, 2010 - 6:53pm
Nat and Steve;
Sorry, I have to go with Bridge's logic, They did not make MK 12 20 mm covers at this point, It must be remembered, Ron 9 was the first application of this weapon in a turret on the scarf ring mount. As far as we know RON 9 might have done their shakedown in the area, Melville-Brooklyn-Bayonne with .50's, then had the modification MK12 Mounts installed at Elco prior to loading out on White Plains, this switch to the MK12 and the mods required to the turrets would have only taken a work week for 12 boats, provided all materials were on hand. Maybe in RON 12 they had MK-12 mount specific canvass covers, but I doubt RON 9 would as they already were issued thier squadron load out, Which today is referred to as a COSAL(Coordinate Shipboard Allowance List).
The weapons were a last minute mod, which they then trained with in Panama, prior to shipment to the Solomons.
All these changes are probably(and should be)notated in the first log books of each boat so modified. probably within two-three weeks prior to White Plains photo.
Take care,
TED


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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: May 23, 2010 - 7:14pm
Unless they took the barrel off, it seems to me that a 20mm would stick up considerably farther than the photo indicates... about 64" above the limiting rail which is about the entire length of a .50 cal..



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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: May 23, 2010 - 7:23pm
Forgot to add good eye Bridge, the starboard forward window on the day room trunk is a dead light while the other five side windows are able to be opened. It is the same dead light that is found on the front of the chart house.



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TheBridge

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TheBridge  Posted on: May 23, 2010 - 8:11pm
Jeff,

I thought about that very point a lot today (the length of the 20mm sticking up). My thought is that A) there is no doubt that forward turrets were 20mm ready. But my guess is that the 20mm were not mounted in the rings at the time of these photos as I did measure the heights (using CorelDRAW's dimensioning function) of the forward and aft turrets and they are about the same. Given that they may have lacked the appropriate covers for them AND that having 20mm, which were pretty heavy guns, rocking around during shipping they may have used a piece of wood to take the palace of the twin 50s so that the canvas would have stiffness not flap around during its voyage to Panama. A piece of wood MAY also account for the single ripple in the canvas of the PT-154 running between where barrels of the twin 50s would go.

SPECULATION is that the 20mm may have been removed prior to loading on-board and stowed on the PTs or the transport ship (i.e. 'White Plains') and refitted in Panama.

If there is any other recall that Capt Liebenow or Welford West can provide I will pass it along on this post.

Bridge


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Jeff D

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Jeff D   Send Email To Jeff D Posted on: May 24, 2010 - 12:25am
I guess we'll never be sure with the photo between the resolution, canvas, and snow. But my guess would be twin .50's, it looks like snow piled up where the boxy part of the guns meet the forward trunnions. Is it possible that they swapped them out during transit?

The rail on the 156 looks smashed down a bit. It also looks like the upper rail is a bit taller than the 157's. Just noticed the starboard windshields have been angled in at the top also? You got some mod work to do Bridge. :D




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alross2

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of alross2   Send Email To alross2 Posted on: May 24, 2010 - 2:50am
With respect and looking for a collegial discussion, I’m not convinced that what you’ve stated supports your argument that the boats were shipped with the MK12 mount from the factory.

“The 20mm, to my knowledge was a 'factory option'. The limit rails, interior turret, top ring mount and gun top were totally different for the 20mm configuration versus the 50-cal. Not a change that would be done if the field (Not saying it would be impossible but highly unlikely!)”
On what sources is this knowledge based – factory photos, memos, drawings, etc.? Clearly, the pedestal into which the cradle pivot is inserted is different from that for the .50. But on what basis do you suggest the rest of the mount was TOTALLY different. From the photos, the diameter of the base ring looks the same, as does the turret base.

“The 20mm limit rails had a 'bulge' in the vertical pipe support to accommodate the the rotation of the larger (than the 50-cal) gun post”
The depression rails are crudely modified. If you look at the photo closely, you’ll notice the kinks in the vertical rails and the erratic bends in the horizontal members. If the factory created the rails, I suspect they would have manufactured properly bent units, even for a small number of boats.
“Secondly, Captain Liebenow's comment a few weeks ago that all of Kelly's RON-9 boats had 20mm in the forward turret has to have some credibility.”
Yes, but from what point in time did they have those mounts? The current question is whether they were already fitted when the boats were loaded aboard the tanker.
“Third, Jeff's comments as to the 20mm configuration for a range of PTs, including RON-9 boats, are supportive.”
Jeff’s comments are that the modifications to the ammo storage were for 187-196. Only 187 was assigned to RON9 and that was about 18 months after the squadron was commissioned, so that does not support the argument.

“Fourth, the photo of the 154 on deck of the White Plains is weak evidence to anything to the contrary above. … If indeed is you want to observe I do see a line running between the two peaks...if this the 20mm barrel?”
The 20mm was a much longer weapon than the .50. The barrel would extend well above the canvas cover, which it does not in the photos.
Al Ross



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TheBridge

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of TheBridge  Posted on: May 24, 2010 - 8:15am
Hi Al,

Let's go to the question that Nat posed in his original post here...did the 154, which was a part of RON-9, have a 20mm in for the forward turret or did it not while in the Pacific?

Yes it did; absolutely. Photos in the on-line PT photo-bucket shows either clearly the 20mm or in some photos you see the tell-tale railing system required for 20-mm mountings. These are true for early and later photos of the 154.

Captain Liebenow said the Kelly ordered all RON-9 PTs. The crews were recruited and trained while the PTs, they would ride, were still being built so Kelly had the ability to order his boats as he saw fit. Liebenow said they target practiced with all guns while in Panama for 4-months including the forward turret 20mm (I have asked him specifically about that previously)

By the way, it is to me a sign of the extraordinary foresight of Kelly and Bulkley to know that 50-cals by themselves were not going to cut it and therefore requested this change. They understood their mission to attack troop transports and defend again occasional enemy airplanes and the need for more firepower was already clear to them. [As we all know this need for more firepower only grows as we see more deck guns with even greater firepower. Welford West said that the enemy often lined the walls of the troop barges with sand bags which reduced the effectiveness of the 50-cal in those 'attack-the-barges' missions.]

Back to the 20mm....

The very latest the 20mm could have been retrofitted to replace the 50-cals would have to have been on arrival in Panama; if the US Naval facilities down there had the appropriate repalcement parts. But why send them to Panama and not do it while the boats were being built? Ted's note makes sense that the RON-9 would have been among, if not the, first to have 20mm in the forward turret so this would have been a new mod for ELCO and I would think that such a mod would be first done by ELCO factory or local Navy personnel state-side ...but note this part is conjecture on my part. As noted above, they did train with the 20mm while in Panama.

I have seen a recent photo, from Jeff Davidson, of a 50-call upper ring and mount being rebuilt (nice color photo at that) and it is obvious that the upper ring, gun mount and it pipe supported of the gun mount are all wielded into a single unit. In a 50-cal configuration there were also left side and right side racks attached to the rotating ring on which sat the ammo boxes sat to feed the 50-cals. There are no such racks for the 20mm (there is one photo I have found that shows this). I have built, in total detail, the 50-cal ring, mount, railing ammo racks, etc based on the Jeff Davidson's excellent drawings. in the building of the PT-157 model so I do feel familiar with it configuration. This is why I can say that that this whole structure would need to be removed as a single unit one wanted to retrofit a 20mm at some later time.

About the drawings Jeff Davidson noted....you may be right. But also it maybe that only later PTs had the formal drawings to show the changes to add more storage for 20mm ammo. The first RON-9 PT s did have 20mm and apparently their ammo box changes were possibly improvised by ELCO or later by the crews themselves and only later did ELCO catch up with nice, formal drawings. [My conjecture here].

I have repeatedly been reminded that these first PT crews were rushed into action and their crews fought with minimal numbers of personnel. It was not until sometime later when the 're-enforcements' arrived did the boats carry full compliment of crewman. I was told by Welford West (plank torpedo-man of the 157) that the first QM (DeWilde) on the 157 was 43 years old! That says the Navy grabbed whatever they had available in the early days. Let us assume the same for the manufacturers. they did not always have the resources in the early days and only later have the 100s of draftsman to catchup on the changes. Dick Washichek's extraordinary collection from the National Archives (which many of us pour over daily or when we can) of 3200 original ELCO drawings were created over the period of the war and certainly not at the outset. Catch-us-catch-can, improvisation and make-do we key in the early months.

Are these snow covered PTs with the 20mm or 50-cal mounts? Until someone finds a better photo (clearer, closer, no snow) of RON-9 PTs being shipped to which we can see the special vertical limit railing pipes used for 20mm (which are dead give away) OR some other reader of this board who worked on ELCOs in Bayonne OR some other yet to be found scrap of evidence can add to body of info we have; this is it.That's about as close as I can get.

If someone has researched this more then the supported summaries I've offered in this post with photos or documents I may not have seen I am always willing to look and listen.

Bridge


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Dick

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Dick   Send Email To Dick Posted on: May 24, 2010 - 9:43am

Just a real quick couple of points, more later tonight.

At an engineering aspect - It is impossible for ELCO to manufacture multiple MOD kits and or modify a series of existing boats in production without a complete set of detailed drawings for workers to build and assemble - just impossible ! ! ! ! ELCO was not some welding Job-Shop welding up tubes to frames to see what they could come up with. The design would have to be prototyped for fit. Not only were draftsmen and engineers in short supply, so were well trained craftsman to build the MODS. This is not some hatch cover but a heavy steel structure capable of taking the stresses of gun operations, let alone, being torn-apart by recoil. These MOD's and manufacturing would have had to be completed at least October 1942 to make it from the factory. WIth maybe a few months longer for Panama.

Where does Kelly get the MUSCLE to order specially modified boats from the factory, I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of Navy personnel at the time who didn't know who he was or even cared - just us PT Boat Nuts. - has anyone ever heard of government paper work, let alone NAVY chain of command and the Bureau of Ship Building's blessings. No one should say for one second"well it was war time."

The photos with snow or not, clearly show a weapon system much shorter then 20mm - if you think otherwise I'll lone anyone a pair of my old glasses.

I just read this over - it sounds a little harsh - but it is not meant in that tome at all . . . I'm just in a big rush

Just having fun with it all.

Dick . . .






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Frank J Andruss Sr

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Post a Reply To This Topic    Reply With Quotes     Edit Message     View Profile of Frank J Andruss Sr   Send Email To Frank J Andruss Sr Posted on: May 24, 2010 - 10:17am
Elco Naval Division certainly had the brains within their confines to come up with Blue Prints needed to put in these 20mm Mounts. One must remember that they made up blue-prints for the PV-70 venture, as little drawings came with that British design. Each piece of that boat was taken a part piece by piece, drawings made, and PT-10 was born. Now as Dick states, was this mount manufactured at the plant in such short time, simply because Kelly asked for it. It is true that ideas learned in the field were siphoned back home and modifications were done. But these took time. Engineers just don't throw things toigether. One must remember the wonderful craftsmen that were in the field, that made constant modifications. The Base Forces had some of the best men at that time with skills that could have easily made those 20mm mounts for the boats.

I know we could sling this thing back and forth all day, but just looking at the photo one can tell "No 20mm cannons are in those mounts", and by the way Elco certainly had the knowledge to change tarps for those 20mm cannons, as they had their own Fabric Department. I feel strongly that it is possible these modifications were done in the Field.........


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