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Topic: Rendova Harbor PT Boat info 2009 |
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TED WALTHER
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 Posted on: Jan 6, 2010 - 7:05am
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Jeff;
With what you and Frank are saying, I also agree, to a certain extent. I agree we need more evidence. My question about this to everyone here is: Why was a torpedo tube found? With all the reserch we have done and all the veterans we have all talked to, why don't we know of a boat that lost its torpedo tube in this area? It would have been recorded somewhere, simply because they were just coming out of a shortage of torpedo tubes, and I believe they would have also been serialized. If they find an engine block at a later date, we have to hope 109 had all her original engines, which needed to be replaced, but I don't have written evidence that they actually were replaced. If they were replaced, it should have been during drydock/repair period in April- May 1943, when Larsen turned over with Thom and JFK. The engine serials would be entered in the 109's deck log and the log of the Tulagi engine shop. Now if these 2 logs were "lost" over the years, we can only go by the fact that 109 was the only boat lost in this area.
Damn! I hope I did not open that old can of worms again!!!!!! DISCLAIMER: THIS IS JUST MY TAKE ON THE BALLARD THING!
take care,
TED
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Frank J Andruss Sr
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Posted on: Jan 6, 2010 - 8:00am
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Ted
There was nothing to indicate that anything was found pertaining to an Elco PT BOAT. My take on it remains the same as it did a few years back when Ballard made his claim. There was no substantial evidence that PT-109 was even found. I certainly understand that finding things on the Ocean Floor is a science in itself, and that finding small parts can be very difficult at best. Again, these PACKARD MARINE ENGINES weigh in at 2,950 pounds each. If the stern sank that night in 1943, after breaking away from the forward half of the boat, those engines would still be in the general area. This, as Ted says is my own opinion and I do not take it from any experts.
I did however speak with a good friend of mine who has been a diver for many years, even working with several groups finding sunken boats and treasures in the Newport, Rhode Island area. He feels as I do that not enough evidence was brought forward to make the claim that PT-109 was found. Until such time as the engines are located or another piece of evidence from an ELCO BOAT, and this is the key word here, "ELCO PT BOAT".with serial numbers, in my mind PT-109 was never located.................
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QM
New Member
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Posted on: Jan 6, 2010 - 12:31pm
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On Monday landslides and a tsunami destroyed the homes of about one third of the population on the island of Rendova. There was a 7.2 magnitude earthquake somewhere nearby.
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Drew Cook
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Posted on: Jan 6, 2010 - 1:42pm
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In a way, I'm quite ambivalent about whether or not Robert Ballard actually found and photographed one of PT 109's torpedo tubes when he searched for the remains of the boat on the bottom of Blackett Straight in May of 2002, but, consider the following...
1) He was searching the bottom of Blackett Straight, where the boat was rammed, drifted, and sank,
2) The search area grid was plotted by calculating the probable area where the boat sank -- the southeastern end of Blackett Straight, near Ferguson Passage -- again, accounting for it's drift due to the currents,
3) The item found and photographed by Ballard's expedition was identified by a U.S. Naval historical expert as a Mark XVIII torpedo tube, the propeller and vanes of a torpedo (most probably a Mark VIII), were seen inside the tube, and the tube's deck-mounted training gear was also seen and I.D.'d,
4) As far as I know, no U.S. Navy vessel carrying a Mark XVIII torpedo tube -- other than PT 109 -- was lost in Blackett Straight,
So, my question is this: why WOULDN'T the rusted and encrusted Mark XVIII torpedo tube containing a torpedo, found and photographed by Ballard on the bottom of Blackett Straight in May of 2002, be from PT 109?
Do those who don't believe the tube photographed is from the 109 also believe Ballard was and is involved in a deliberate deception, as to WHERE the tube was found?
True, the entire object of the search WAS to find the remains of the 109, and they had an expensive expedition, a filmed documentary and a pre-existing book deal counting on Ballard's finding it, but...
Why would Ballard risk his public reputation on such a large hoax, and why would the U.S. Navy aid and abet him by I.D.ing the tube as a PT-103 class Mark XVIII torpedo tube, on the bottom of Blackett Straight, if it wasn't? I'm aware of several (ridiculous, to me) conspiracy theories about why they would, but -- come on!
The reason given for the fact that anything under the tube was buried was logical to me, as photos showed the undulating, shifting sand drifts on the bottom, and, if the Rendova area has suffered a 7.2 level earthquake in recent days, the sea floor is probably even more likely now to have shifted and covered even the tube.
Everybody has their own opinion, but to me, there are too many reasons for the stance that Ballard probably DID find (part of) the remains of PT 109 than for the one that he didn't, and has foisted a deliberate hoax on the public since 2002.
PT 109 was rammed, drifted, and sank somewhere in Blackett Straight on August 2, 1943. Her remains are still somewhere on the bottom. That much is undeniable.
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TED WALTHER |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Jan 6, 2010 - 2:24pm
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Damn, I did it again!
Drew;
I am not calling this a hoax, but as you said the money that was spent only to find a torpedo tube, without digging in the sand to see if some decking was left. The Navy officially calls the boat a war grave, which I am sure dictated alot of what Ballard could and could not do once he did discover the wreck, however, this is in theory only because more than likely Marney's body was swept away with the stbd turret as the DD cut through the boat near this point. Kirksey's body if it did remain with the aft portion of the boat sank with it, however he was topside also. Anyway, with money expended, why not the aft portion which on side scan sonar should provide a better return than a tube with a torpedo in it. I guess I just want more pieces to be found of the 109. I doubt they ever will, because as far as all that were involved, including the Navy, it is a closed subject. As for me I feel, Dr. Ballard, who is the best at what he does, did a better job investigating the Yorktown, which is also classified as a war grave.
The search for the 109, sort of reminded me of Geraldo Rivera's search for Al Capone's vault.
Alright Sorry guys, I am out of this one.
TED
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Will Day
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Posted on: Jan 7, 2010 - 11:50am
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Drew and Ted both make excellent points. Personally, I tend to discount the "conspiracy" theories (which inevitably crop up surrounding anything of this significance).
We probably know as much now as we will ever know about the remains of the 109 boat.
...of course, who knows what some future technology or another giant quake in that area might turn up?
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TGConnelly
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Posted on: Jan 7, 2010 - 12:06pm
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I do not think he found it, but hey, what do I know? I think the wreck will be closer to shallow water, as she was last seen by two witnesses, a PBY pilot and by Evans, on a reef ..........
Garth
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Shaneo2
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Posted on: Jan 9, 2010 - 12:06pm
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Interesting how finds from the PT boats in Rendova Harbor morphs into discussion on the PT 109 expedition- it is great the conversation is keeping history alive.
That being said I hoped to show here the base area and some sites there of interest in regards to "all the other men" who served, not only PT boats but simply served in the Solomons.
I find the story of the PT-109 interesting, but in regards to PT boats, I find now: "any other" PT boat information/story in the Solomons "much more interesting" then the PT-109. The least interesting chapters for me in the book PT-105, was the one that included the story of the events of that night. I want to know about everyone else who was there, not drift back to a story to be told and retold, and retold...Yet if you write a book from there you have to include it I know.
On survival stories in the Solomons during the war, the PT-109 is remarkable, but having read of so many others like the USS Juneau, or the many, many aviators shot down there -it is just "one of many" - just so happens JFK went on to be president. President Nixon served in the Northern Solomon Islands too (Bougainville), although nothing as interesting as PT Boats.
One of the most irritating things for me in my questions to locals in the Solomons, was when I would ask about PT Boats or areas, how they would assume anything PT boat was "Kennedy"- I got to a point where when I felt some information (probably made up - or heard from someone, who knew someone, who knew someone, who was there) would turn to something Kennedy ...I would tell them"I am not interested in Kennedy, or the PT-109"...now what do you got ?
For anyone wanting to get interviews on/about PT's in the Solomons, just like our veterans the elders there are passing on- in a few years you will be faced with dealing with: someone who knew someone, who knew someone ...you know the rest...
I have never followed on the Ballard trip...I met a local there who claims to have been involved with the trip...once the conversation turned to PT-109 I excused myself and left. As far as finding anything at depth- wow I guess he was lucky. The sand shifts so much, even the dive sites I dived in Rendova. One area I saw in 2008 had 3x the items exposed as last year, my regret is not spending the whole dive there- instead it was just the safety stop- live and learn.
I do not have the support of University dept.'s, nor private donations for another something "JFK" discovery- I could never spend the kind of money Ballard did to find a tube...I find it farcical the USN declared it a "war grave" if that is true (?)...I wonder if the USN knows in doing this- that there are almost 3,000 US Missing in Action in the Solomons "still" to this day- and no, they are not all on ships sunk in Iron Bottom Sound- as some like to think.
With almost 3,000 US MIA in the Solomons, really did they declare a torpedo tube a war grave ? I can show them one war grave- a F4F Wildcat that was found with the pilots body aboard- I understand a RAMSI officer recovered the bones and brought them to Honiara to give to US consul there- the reason is: *the US Government does not send MIA recovery teams to the Solomons*....JPAC has the bones now thanks to a RAMSI police officer...meanwhile because we send "no teams" to the Solomons some other divers have bones from the site they are trying to return- but they get no reply from JPAC..myself and others suspect some locals may have the dog tags too - and possibly the pilots skull...and oh the wreck which is in less then 20m of water and the has not been declared it a "war grave" by either the USN or USMC.
The remains of the PT 164 are not a declared "war grave"- there is no signs/markers/nor memorials- and even still- is all the debris there from the PT-164 - I suspect it is from both boats?
I found another F4F upside down cockpit embedded into the earth in the jungle...the pilots canteen was in the wreckage...one local "slipped up" and said in pigin that the pilots "pistol" was found too....who bails out without their pistol over enemy territory ? When I asked further on the pistol- it was "lost or someone stole it"- which means either they did not know where it was, or did not want to show me.
You do not even have to look hard in the Solomons to find information on MIA- and yet the US Government sends no teams to look for the MIA and private donors paid millions to declare a supposed torpedo tube no one will ever see (except in pictures), a war grave- words escape me now.
I will try to post some more photos of on/about PT's here a disclaimer though: nothing is from the PT-109
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Shaneo2
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Posted on: Jan 9, 2010 - 12:39pm
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Corrected the name spelling
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Frank J Andruss Sr
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Posted on: Jan 9, 2010 - 2:18pm
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One of the things I have learned over the years is that the story of PT-109 will always be with us. The contraversy of this crash will continue to make heated discussions with PT Boat Veterans, who insist Kennedy should have been Court Marshalled for the incident. One thing I can say that holds true: If Kennedy had not become President, PT BOATS would have never been as well known as they are today. The movie PT-109 brought the PT Boats into the public eye no doubt.
When one asks someone about a PT Boat, the first thing they say is :Wasn't that the boat Kennedy was on". It is then that I realize that PT-109 certainly did make an impact on our Nation, and no matter how many Exhibits I put on, this is how people discribe what a PT Boat is. I choose not to turn my Exhibits into a PT-109 affair, but how can you buck History, IT DID HAPPEN, and KENNEDY was there, and became President of the United States.
If not for that movie, my love affair with PT BOATS might not have happened. To this day, PT-109 remains the main reason I have continued to try and educate the public about the role of the PT Boats, Bases, and Tenders. It is this movie, that as a young ten year old, held my fasination and caused me to ask Dad to buy me one. I do get fustrated when people want to talk about PT-109 all the time, but again this is History, plain and simple. I have learned over the years that I represent all of those who served on the boats, and my main goal is to tell the story of the PT BOATS period....................
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